BEST OF Episode: Chasing Perfect with Alisha Illian

Unedited Transcript

Alicia. I am so excited to have you on the show today. Thank you for joining me. Yeah, it's a pleasure. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So you have a new book that just came out into the world. It is called chasing perfect peace and perfect. And the exhausting pursuit of something better. And if is.

A common thread that I see when I talk to authors and you know, when podcasting, a lot of the people we talk to are authors. And one of the things that I find as a common thread is a lot of authors will tell me, well, I went through this season and God taught me X, and then I wrote a book about it. And. I see a lot of authors draw from their own personal experience in that.

And so I'm curious, what led you down this path for the message of this book? How did that unfold for you? Hmm. Well, a couple of things, actually. So you are right. I was born as a firstborn child, you know, type a accomplisher, you know, activator by nature. Um, and so I was really driven as a child by being successful at what I did, whether it was my grades, my academics.

My sports, um, and or who liked me and how many boys liked me and all those things just kind of, um, fed my identity and where I kind of turn to for satisfaction and yeah. It was always something that I wrestled with from, I think from the day I was born and maybe that's just being a first born, I don't know.

Um, but it was definitely, uh, probably a struggle for me growing up is, you know, God just kind of walking me down that path and showing me that this is. This is not godly. This is not gonna be beneficial for you. Um, but continues to be something that I wrestle with is trying to find peace and purpose and things that I can accomplish and my own achievement.

And, um, also just the approval and applause I get from man. And so I see that now as not necessarily a strength, but something that is a shortcoming and something that I need to turn to Jesus for, um, on a daily basis. So, um, that definitely was something that helped me, um, determine like, what is, what do I want to write about?

And like, most authors will say we don't write because we have it all, um, perfectly that we have it down, but we write because this is something that we feel like the Lord is continuing to show and grow us in. Particular struggle or through this message. And so, um, that, and then it was crazy because a year and a half to two years ago, I wrote this meme on social media that, um, it went crazy viral.

Um, which I always said, like it wasn't, to me the most insightful thing that I ever wrote, but for whatever reason, it totally resonated. And um, if, if you're on Facebook or social media, you probably read it or shared it. You said this girl, read your Bible. You can eat all the kale by all the things, lift all the weights, take all the trips, trash, all that.

Doesn't spark joy, wash your face and hustle like mad. But if you don't rest your soul in Jesus, you'll never find peace or purpose. And honestly, that thing just took off and just start. People were sharing it like crazy. And I never anticipated the message would resonate and explode and the way that it did, but it made me wise that women like they desperately desire, peace and purpose and look for contentment.

Um, but you know, I quickly realized that this was a message that was worth unpacking. So it wasn't just something that I struggled with personally, but something that I felt like a lot of women are continuing to struggle with, you know? Cause we hear this message all the time. Like you are. You are the one responsible for your own happiness.

And we see this everywhere. So it's like this pressure to feel like I've got to produce my own peace and my own purpose in life. And that is just, I mean, it sounds good on surface level, but it's such an exhausting message internally and eternally. Um, yes, it's something that I struggle with, but it was something that I realized a lot of women probably struggle with as well.

And so I'm like, you know what, this is worth unpacking. I'm going to write a book that kind of, um, really does dig into the message of that meme that was shared. And then what can our response to that? Yes. Okay. I have so much to say about this. So first of all, we are wired very similarly in that. Every personality test I've ever taken.

If there's an achiever, like word, that's what, that's my result. That's what I get. So we are cut from the same cloth and something that I have just become even more increasingly aware of, especially as you start a ministry and you have a podcast and you're walking alongside other people, sharing messages is ethic.

The more we do this, the more discerning we're really going to have to be of the messages that are going out into the world, fortunately, or unfortunately I have to say a lot of nos to, to messages within Christian houses that I just can't stand behind that are in kind of this vein of the self-empowerment you're the hero of your own story.

Type of message. And, um, You know, I think a good example of that. I mean, just to be super blunt and not like, just call out the white elephant in the room, like a lot of us have bought girl wash your face. Right. A lot of us heard, you know, oh, my small group is going through this book or, oh, you know, I I've seen the magazine articles or I've read the blogs or whatever.

And so we just go maybe by what other people say, and it was published by Christian House. It's a good example of, of a message that, I mean, I've got the book I bought the book, I read part of the book and, um, and it's very easy to be very transparent as an achiever to read a message like that and be like, yeah, that's it.

Yeah, that totally makes sense because that feeds everything in me that is not yet sanctified and that I'm still working through with the Lord. Right. And so I actually hadn't made the connection that you wrote that meme until I was talking to your publisher about having you on the show. And I was so excited because I think a response to that type of message needs to be out in the world.

And so I'm really, really excited about this book. A word that I think comes up super often. When we talk about books like this or messages, like this is the word hustle, right? And so I think that's something that is glorified in society now. And you know, I'm curious as, as you've wrestled with this, and obviously you have an audience that you are speaking to a kind of in response to this whole conversation, what do you think is happening in our society as.

We have maybe bought into this idea of hustle and it's been glorified in our lives. Yeah. Um, that's really good. And I have a couple of things to say about that, but going off of what you just said with, um, the whole Rachel Hollis girl wash your face. I just want to say this because there has been pushed back a little bit on chasing perfect from people that have not even read the book yet, just because in the meme, which is on the back of the book, it says.

Well, you know, wash your face and hustle like Matt, but here's what I would really love that listeners to think about for a second. Is that that message is not saying that we can't hustle that we can't go and do the things God asked us to do, or even enjoy the blessings he's given us because listen, I like a good mango kale smoothie.

Tail or we can't, you know, lift the weights. That's really good for you. I'm turned 40 this year and I'm thinking about, I need to be lifted more weights for my bone and my strength and those things are not bad in and of themselves. And that message that I put out there with that quote, that meme like that wasn't intended to say that it's necessarily wrong to do the things that what Rachel.

Is giving us in like motivated, you know, she's really good at helping us see goals and how to strategize. And she's really savvy with those things. So that's not, that's not what I'm trying to say here. What I'm trying to say is a lot of what she also says. This is what happens. Sometimes I think the enemy can twist things that are good and make them seem like they, he makes them seem like God thinks good things can turn into God, things really easily.

And so what I've seen in her message a lot and never want to attack a person or an author. Yeah, but the message we've got to be discerning about to your point, the messages that we're receiving. And that is good. That is biblical to be wise and discerning based on what God's word says until align everything that we hear with scripture.

Yeah. And so when we do that and when we hear the message that somehow you're the hero of your own story, like you said, or that you are the, you're the one in control of your own happiness. If you just live into an actual lies yourself. And so self-help culture, um, kind of this hustle culture kind of influences that and, and.

Makes us think about like, how can we do that and gives us tools to do that. That's when you start going, okay, that doesn't sound like the gospel of the Bible. Jesus is the hero. He's the one that gives us the strength and provision. And he's the reason why we are doing the things that we're doing. So it's like she kind of flips the script a little bit and subtly.

And if we're not in our Bibles, if we're not, um, hearing these things with a discerning heart, Spirit, because we know the word of God, man, we're going to fall into all sorts of things that are not ultimately going to be best for us. So yes, there's some good in these things and I'm, you know, I'm the first to say, like, yes, you know, go on the trip.

Sometimes we need to do that. Yeah, whatever, but man, we cannot let that be the source of our peace and purpose because it's never going to be, it's never going to work out well for us. So, um, to answer your question with this whole hustle culture and, and you know, what happens in society as a result of that, I just want to say this.

I believe that achievement is the most socially acceptable idol of our time. I really think that like, we tend to just downplay this a little bit, but I'm seeing it everywhere even in this Christian subculture. And I even have to be careful about, like we talked about earlier. It's something that I can fall into very easily.

And it can be an idol and we need to call it what it is. Um, so like we said earlier, like, it's this whole idea of you are enough. I am enough looking inward to find satisfaction, looking outward, comparing with other people, but not looking upward. Um, like that's a problem. We start navel gazing instead of gazing at Jesus.

We're going to be off base. Our eyes have got to be up. He is the one that's in. And yes, we are enough in and through him, but not in and of ourselves and the hustle culture. They want us to believe that our performance equals our value and busy-ness equals our worth. So that's, that's a problem cause we know that's not true.

Jesus is our worth. He, we work from a place of acceptance, not for a place of acceptance. So. I don't necessarily think hustle's the problem or busy-ness is the problem. And maybe that's surprising, but I think the problem isn't our activity level. It's our anxiety level. It's the state of our heart. Um, it's the value and identity that we place on our achievements and our accomplishments.

So we don't necessarily always have a busy problem. I think we can be busy and still be at peace inside knowing that our worth and value come from Christ alone. But we can be busy and have an idolatry problem too. So we need some, you know, we gotta be really introspective about our heart and what we're placing value in.

Um, And so, yeah, I think often, like, and this is something that I came to realize is that we're not striving for necessarily achievement and power or popularity. What we're really looking for is joy and peace and purpose and satisfaction and love and control in our life. That's what we're really looking for.

And it's masked as achievement and power and popularity. So if we're really looking for joy and peace and purpose, what does that remind us of? We're looking for Jesus. That's what we're looking for. So we don't need transformed out of our idols of success or being better or having more. We need transformed out of our dis disbelief and distrust that Jesus is Ashley enough in our lives.

And that's what gets me to me as I'm like, Lord, help me to have the faith to believe. And remember that you are enough. You are my peace. He's the prince of peace. You are my joy. You are a fullness of joy. So I'm seeing 11 in your presence is fullness of joy. You are my satisfaction. You are love, you know, like those are the things my heart is wanting and longing for, and that's why I'm hustling.

That's why I'm trying to achieve and perform and earn the acceptance of other people and the approval of other people. And so, um, Yeah, I know I'm talking a long time, but like this isn't it like, this is like, it's easy for us to trust Jesus as savior of our soul, but it's a lot harder to trust him as Lord of our life.

Yeah, and me like me. I mean, that's, that's where I'm at. Sometimes I'm like, yeah, Lord, you can have my soul. I trust you paid the price for my sin on the cross and I'll let you take that. But man, as Lord of my life, that's a lot harder to believe in trust that you are enough. Yes. And that's something that is like, it's a daily dependence on God for it.

Yeah. Yes. I love okay. I amen to everything you just said and something came to mind and it's a. It's a message that I've pointed back to several times on the show, a book that I really love a lot and. Coming back to the whole, eat the kale, do all of the workouts. Part of this. There's a book called everybody matters.

It's by Gary Thomas, who I, I love as a writer. And, um, he takes really hard concepts like. Toxic relationships, physical fitness, and how we honor God with our bodies, things that are just hard and the church doesn't talk about a lot. He unpacks and a lot of his books, which I have a lot of respect for, and everybody matters kind of the core message comes back to like, I don't work out.

I don't eat the kale, so that I'll look good when I go to the beach. I don't, I don't do that so that, you know, I'm able to get up earlier and do all of the things, but rather. I see my body as an instrument that God's able to better use for ministry. And when I, and when I treat my body in that way, I'm better equipped for whatever it is that God's going to call me to do, you know, if God, if God put on my heart, a mission trip overseas, somewhere where I was going to have to hike miles each and every day, what I'd be able to do that with the way that I'm, I'm treating my body right now.

And if not, what do I need to change? So that I'm able to most glorify God in the body that he's given me this side of eternity. I think it's just such a. Helpful lens to think about all of that through so specific to like the physical stuff. That's a book that I would definitely recommend, um, listeners to pick up, you know, if this is something that you struggle with, but for all of it, you know, back to it.

His glory, what I'm after or, or is, is it some version of me twisting that and doing all the things so that I received the acceptance or the praise, or the honor, the glory. And, um, I think the point about it being a subtle shift is you're exactly right. I think everything about, you know, the parts of that message that we maybe don't need to buy into it's it's not, you know, Total 190 degree turn from scripture.

It's just a message. That sounds good. But when you get right down to it, it's maybe just not, not in line of scripture. So I love everything you said there. And, um, Just really excited that you're unpacking this in a way. That's not like, you know, there's nothing too the word hustle or there's nothing to the word.

Self-discipline. Those are the things that the Bible talks about a lot, and God has a lot to say about them. So I love the way that you've kind of framed, um, kind of the core message of this book. So this is great. Okay. Something else that you talk about in the book is how God really awakened your heart to prioritize what matters to him.

And so I think this is a good next step to kind of go in the conversation. So how have you navigated this and how would you encourage listeners to maybe do the same? Yeah, totally. Um, I do think that we need to prioritize, um, I think that, like you said, um, You know, it's not necessarily wrong to be disciplined in our lives and to be strategic about how we do things and to work hard and faithfully at all that we do.

Um, you know, it's, I remember my dad taking me to school and every morning almost, I felt like. The message must have really hit hard, but, um, he would say this in the car on the way before school, before dropping us off, he would remind us of collagen's 3 23 that says work hard and cheerfully at all that you do just as though you are working for God and not merely for men.

And, um, you know, I didn't think about that at the time, but basically what he was reminding me is that we have a responsibility in life to work hard and to make good choices and to be wise, um, As we were talking about earlier, what makes it holy? What makes it beneficial is when we are doing it for the glory of God and not for ourselves or not for the approval to win the approval of other people.

And that is something that really, I thought about later. Yeah, like that's, that's it. Can we do it? Can we operate our lives in such a way that we can be after all the things that he's gifted us towards called us to given us passions or, um, without being consumed by them, um, with Christ being our greatest treasure.

And sometimes we have to be intentional about that because these things, they don't necessarily come natural to our flesh, um, you know, left to ourselves. We're not going to draw closer to God. And there's a quote that I absolutely love. And I want to share it with the listeners today. So just listen to this.

It's so good. Da Carson said this, people do not drift towards holiness. Apart from grace driven effort, people do not gravitate towards godliness, prayer, obedience to scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift towards compromise and call it tolerance. We drift towards disobedience and call it free.

We drift towards superstition in call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of loss self-control and call it relaxation. We slouched towards prayerlessness and dilute ourselves into thinking. We have escaped legalism. We slide towards godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberating. And man, like just, yeah.

You know, the point is like, we have to be intentional about prioritizing, um, our relationship with God because man, the flesh is so strong and we know it. We can say it right here. And probably our listeners agree that yes, our God shouldn't be in our bodies and what they look like at the beach. But I'll be honest.

There's times I work out and I'm like a benefit of that is how I look, you know, and it's not wrong to want to, you know, take care of our bodies, but like how easily that can become a God. And instead of, you know, Like to your point that, you know, we work out to take care of our temples because we live for a different kingdom.

We live for a different world, you know? And so, um, and so anyway, yes, we have to prioritize walking in the spirit and being close to him because so easily we can just fall into the ways of our flesh. Um, so we don't passively grow closer to God. Um, as in any relationship we need to prioritize time, um, with the other person, um, to get to know them.

Uh, we become what we behold, so we miss put God before us continually. Um, and honestly I think if I'm, if I'm just being completely honest with myself, um, I make time for the things that are important. Amen. I mean, I've been through a lot of busy seasons of life, but you know, there are seasons that it's more difficult than others to take quiet, intimate time, um, with the Lord and in his work.

But we have to, it is so important that we make, create that sacred space to be with him because nothing else is gonna, you know, we may think that we're accomplishing things by doing all the tasks, but man, if our walk isn't right with Christ, we haven't accomplished anything. So anyways, uh, ways that I prioritize, um, is, uh, first of all, like we've got to be in the word of God.

That's his place that he reveals himself to us. I call it like, it's the language of the holy spirit. So if we want the holy spirit to convict us and to lead us and direct us and comfort us and all the things that the holy spirit does for us, he uses scripture to do that. So if we're not in the word, he doesn't have the language to, to lead us.

And, um, to guide us. So we have to plan for that. And I always say, I've done this before we open up the Bible and you put your finger down on the verse that you want to start reading it. If you don't have a plan, you're going to resort to that. And we think it's really important that we read scripture in context.

So I always say. Read through the Bible, even the hard things, because it's a complete story. It's a complete narrative and yes, it takes some work, but like anything worthwhile, it does take work. Um, and so follow a good plan. I use, um, the, uh, Read scripture app and they have, um, it's the Bible project guys, if you aren't familiar with them, but amazing job, they have a plan and then they have videos that will help you understand each book of the Bible.

So before you start reading it, you can listen to the video and it will help you give, give you kind of an overview of what it's, what the, the book is about. And that's really helpful. And some of the more complicated, like old Testament books, so have a plan, follow it. Don't get too frustrated if you're off track for the day as an achiever, like that used to bother me a lot.

Like, oh, I'm not, you know, I'm not following the plan. I'm not going to finish in a year. But, um, I think more importantly, like we just need to take our time through it. No one says you have to read through the Bible in the year, but following a plan I think is important. Um, and then find the time. Works the best for you, but I, but I always say like, make sure it's your first fruits.

Um, so like some people are just nice people and they can study at night and they ha they're awake and, um, can, you know, set their mind on things and not be distracted and tired and fatigued. But for me, like I'm my best in the morning. So I really do try to find, even if I have to wake up 15 minutes early, um, to find that time with the Lord where I.

My, my mind is firing on all cylinders. So, um, find what time that is best for you. And maybe if you have young kids and they're napping, maybe it's during a nap and you have to leave the dishes in the dishwasher. Guess what? That's okay. You know, like you have to prioritize what's important. Um, and then in the book I talk about this, like devote daily, withdraw weekly.

Measure monthly and abandon annually. So that's just a good way to kind of, um, and I like some structure, so this just helps remind me like every single day have a time to devote to the Lord. Every week, pick a day to withdraw a Sabbath day almost of rest and not just leisure rest, but like intentional time to connect with the Lord.

Um, and then every month set apart maybe a day or an afternoon to just measure, count the fruit, you know, where are you struggling? Where do you need to invest more time? Um, Where has there been fruit and harvest from your time with the Lord? And what has he taught you? What prayers has he answered and then abandon annually?

I think it's a good idea once a year to get away, even by yourself, you know, even if you trade off babysitting, um, have your husband watch the kids for a day, you know, get away and have those quiet moments. Jesus did that. So if Jesus did it, I think we should. Yes. I love that. I love that sort of model to go back to.

So that's, that's really, really helpful. And I'm excited to share that with listeners. And I think something else that is a temptation for me, and probably a lot of our listeners too, who are in quote ministry, is there are times where let's say, you know, you're leading women in a small group or you're preparing to give a talk or whatever.

And so I think sometimes it's easy. And I want to call this out because I do it in my own life. It can be that temptation of law. Well, I prepped for small group, so like I was in my Bible, but like, did I actually say time aside to be with God, just to be in his presence and spend time in prayer and read his word because I just wanted to be with him, you know?

So I think it's easy in a busy season to get. Maybe caught there. So I just want to say, like, if you're there, I've been there too, and it happens. Um, but I would just encourage you if you are there to strive for more in your, in your walk with him daily. Um, and like you said, if it is that 15 minutes of an earlier alarm, it's worth it, you know?

And, um, so I think figuring out what that looks like for you is important and also. I mean, I'm with you. It's so easy to slip into. Well, okay. I, I snooze the alarm, so I'll just not read today because it didn't go exactly. Like I wish it would have, and that's okay to, you know, carve out, you know, 30 minutes during lunch or whatever that looks like.

But, um, I love everything that you shared there that gives a good kind of framework to bring everybody back to. So. So there's a question that I ask every guest. And it's my favorite question. Um, I was love hearing what people have to say, and that's sort of where we will end today. And that is what do you think is one of the best pieces of advice that you've ever been.

Hmm. Okay. So I have to narrow it down. So, um, the first one that I thought was so insightful was several years back, we went to family camp. And at pine Cove in Texas with that summer counselor camp counselors, um, he was very wise college student and he was taking my son out for water skiing and he never water skied before.

And my firstborn son is a lot like me. He gets really frustrated when things don't. Go well, or right. And he's not good at something and he can't accomplish it the first time you tried it. And so it was a real learning opportunity for him because he was failing and the super athletic kid is not able to get up on the water skis.

And so he broke down in tears and you know, of course my husband and I are like trying to console him and trying to encourage him. And this college student, this counselor came up to him. And he said, I got it. Hold on just a second. So we're like, okay, we're going to take a step back as parents and see what he has to say.

And he leaned in and he said, Hey buddy, he's like, you were made to do hard things and you, my son just was like, Um, yeah. Okay. You know, like, all right. And so he gets back up on the skis and, you know, the tears stop and he just starts working at it and continuing to try and without losing, losing his mind, like he was, and that really hit me.

Honestly, you know, and I I'd heard kind of a variation of that before, but really what struck me is that sometimes the hard thing for me isn't necessarily the black or white. It's not the, it's not the risky thing. It's not the scary thing is the things that require faith. Yeah. So the hard thing for me is when I, when I have to trust God and the places that don't have clear answers.

So it's like a moment by moment returning to him to find my rest, to, to find my strength like Isaiah says, and to depend on him in that faith walk like daily, depending on the spirit to help me. That's not easy for me. Because I like to be able to control things. The dependence is really hard. And so, um, that middle ground, um, that's the hard place.

And so just as a reminder for me, you were made to do hard things. You were made to lean into me. God's not always going to make it easy for us. He's not always going to get it. The clear answer or, or lay out the steps or the path before us, he's gonna call us to trust in him because the deliverance is often his presence.

And he knows if he gives us the answers sometimes that we're not going to lean into it. Yeah. And so that was a really, really good reminder for me. And just like it was for myself. And then the second piece of advice that I, um, heard actually this last year, I was speaking with kind of a mentor friend, and I was just asking her questions about like, how do I know if what I'm doing is God's will, you know?

And so, um, there's times that I just feel like there's maybe not peace or there's fear behind it. And I'm having a hard time just concerning. Like, is this me? Or is this a view? God, that's like giving me resistance. To the, this plan or this calling or whatever. And she immediately stopped me and she said, Alicia, she said, um, if there is a spirit of fear involved, then it's not of the Lord.

Don't let a spirit of fear determine your steps. And could they, because you can be assured that it's not from God. Um, and by the way, God will sometimes ask us to do scary things. Um, but if we make decisions based on that fear, then we're in trouble. Yeah. So like, we should pray for a spirit of peace that will guide our path, even if we experience those fleshly fears.

Yeah. So God will guide us. Um, with that spirit of peace, not a spirit of fear and, uh, ah, that's so, so good. So it's being discerning about, what's guiding you, there's going to be an underlying piece behind what you do, even if you feel afraid in the midst of it. If it's a God. Yeah. If there's no peace involved, um, then we can be pretty assured that it's not from the Lord.

So I just thought that was, that was great piece of. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And we're wired very similarly. So that's a really good reminder for me as well. So I really appreciate that. Well, this has been such a good conversation. I'm so excited for everybody to tune in to this one. And before we go, Alicia, I want you to share with everybody where can listeners find the book?

Where can they find you online? Share all those things. Yeah. So my website is Alicia ilian.com. Um, it's also women repurpose.com, same place. Um, it's where you can find our ministry, their ministry team. And then on social media, my handle is at Alicia Ilian. So that's a L I S H a I L L I a N. Thank you.

Thank you so much for being on the show today. And this has been so much fun getting to know you, and I'm excited for listeners to check out. Same to you. Thanks for having me.