Episode 184. God’s Faithfulness in Loss with Mattie Jackson Selecman
[rebecca_george]: Mattie, I am so grateful to have you on the show today. Thank you so much
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[rebecca_george]: for joining me.
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[mattie]: Hey, thank you, but I'm excited to chat and get to know you a little more.
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[rebecca_george]: I know this is going to be so fun, so I,
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[rebecca_george]: I have to thank my mom for this conversation because she found your book and
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[rebecca_george]: heard you interview. I forget where she heard about your book originally,
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[rebecca_george]: but she reached out to me and she was like If I would just wonder if there's
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[rebecca_george]: any way that you guys could talk, Because I feel like you guys would hit it
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[rebecca_george]: off. And man, she just is such an amazing woman and I love her story. and I
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[rebecca_george]: want you to talk to her. And so I remember reaching out to your publisher
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[rebecca_george]: and I was like Okay. My mom told me about this book that Mattie wrote. and I
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[rebecca_george]: need to know. Can we chat about it And so I'm just I'm excited to get to
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[rebecca_george]: know you better. I. This feels so special to me for so many reasons because
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[rebecca_george]: one, like I grew up on your dad's music, so we can start there like, like
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[rebecca_george]: Alan and Garth were like pivotal things of my childhood. And so when I w,
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[rebecca_george]: even driving home from somewhere the other day I was listening to some of
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[rebecca_george]: your dad's music and I'm like immediately in the red Tacoma that my dad
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[rebecca_george]: drove as a child, like on the way to the park to go on a walk, or like watch
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[rebecca_george]: my dad go fish or something. And so it just feels real special to get to
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[rebecca_george]: chat with you. So I'm so excited and we're here. Really, Because you are
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[rebecca_george]: reallyle seeing, Have released your book Lemons on Friday That we get to
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[rebecca_george]: chat about. The subtitle is trusting God through my greatest heartbreak,
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[rebecca_george]: and I know there's going to be people who know bits and pieces of your story
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[rebecca_george]: and listeners who have not heard about your story yet. And so I'd love for
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[rebecca_george]: you to give those who maybe haven't heard yet just kind of a little bit of a
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[rebecca_george]: recap of the last couple of years of your life that have led to the story of
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[rebecca_george]: this book.
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[mattie]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. um. so yeah, my dad's Allan Jackson, I grew up in Nashville,
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[mattie]: and kind of around the music industry, and Um, regrettably and not as musical as he.
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[mattie]: So I did not go into that, but I did hopefully get a little bit of the Wdting gene.
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[mattie]: It's actually what I studied in college and I've always wanted to. Um. I've always
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[mattie]: wanted to be an author, to be honest, and this has been
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[rebecca_george]: Yeah, yeah,
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[mattie]: probably a twelve year dream that has just been realized. That's something we can go
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[mattie]: into a whole lot later. but just Jesus using my greatest heartbreak to make this
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[mattie]: long time dream come true. I mean it's just it's insane the way that he works. and
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[mattie]: Um, but after college came back to Nashville, Um met Ben Selectman, who is my
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[mattie]: husband and Um, just fell in love with him so quickly. He was just like this,
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[mattie]: vibrant, joyful, just charismatic man, and Um, I'm really grateful. looking back
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[mattie]: that our love story was pretty fast. We dated for about a year, engaged for a year,
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[mattie]: and then we're married just shy of the year. Um.
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[mattie]: When we were coming up on our first wedding anniversary, Uh, we were in Florida with
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[mattie]: my sisters. I have two younger sisters. their boyfriends
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[rebecca_george]: mhm, Mhm, Mhm,
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[mattie]: at the time, and some friends, and just celebrating it was Labor day, celebrating
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[mattie]: the holiday and multipleded them, and had birthdays. And, um, so my dad is a big
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[mattie]: fisherman, but she does have some songs out. So he's a fishing boat down there. We
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[mattie]: were in Florida, and we had gone out on it one night and had like a dinner cruise.
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[mattie]: And we stopped at this little tiki bar and they had like music and dancing and all
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[mattie]: sorts of stuff. And so we just had a great
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[rebecca_george]: Mhm,
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[mattie]: time, and then we were getting back on the boat to go back to the hotel where you're
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[mattie]: staying, And you know South Florida just has like random, you know, pop up
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[mattie]: thunderstorms all the time, So it' been a little shower. whatever. So it was wet and
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[mattie]: we were walking to get back up on the boat and climbing up the little metal steps,
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[mattie]: And he was helping some of us get back on and his sandal just hit the steps the
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[mattie]: wrong way and he slipped and fell back and hit his head on the concrete dock. And
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[mattie]: the that point I was, you know, making sure he was okay, but he sort of just like
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[mattie]: shook
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[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah,
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[mattie]: his head and came back to, and it almost seemed like a sports injury or something
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[mattie]: like I thinking maybe he'll have a confession. you know whatever, and by God's
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[mattie]: grace, truly, there were two off. Do the m, ts um at the Littletki bar where we were
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[mattie]: And they came over and kind of checked him out and said you know you need to take
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[mattie]: him to the e. R. Immediately. we got
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: called. An ambulance went in,
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[mattie]: and um, yeah, still, at this point not being too overly concerned, I'm like, I'm
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[mattie]: glad we're being cautious, but we get there and at this point by the time you're
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[mattie]: there and you're checked in and all the stuff you know, the e r is surprisingly not
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[mattie]: a a super expedient experience All the time you know it wass almost. it's like
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[mattie]: midnight. I'm in Florida. I don't know where I'm at and you know I'm kind of just in
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[mattie]: this dream state of what's going on And you know the neurosurgeon comes in and and
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[mattie]: says you know, his brains starting to swell from the impact, And we don't have to do
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[mattie]: surgery right away, but we might in the next twenty four hours, And so that really
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[mattie]: shocked me into the reality of this is, this is far more than a concussion and I'
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[mattie]: have no idea what to do. So at that point, I, of course, called his parents and my
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[mattie]: parents. They both were able to come down the next day, and then from there it was
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[mattie]: twelve days in the I. c. u. Um. he was in a medically induced coma to try to
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[mattie]: mitigate the swelling, multiple sort of brain surgeries. and after twelve days he
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[mattie]: ended up having multiple strokes and Um, the neurosurgeon came back and said, You
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[mattie]: know he's brain dead. Like Hear are your options, and
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[mattie]: that was.
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[mattie]: It was never the outcome that we expected, and part of that is just because
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[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah, yeah,
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[mattie]: we should fight in prayer and we should hope until the end.
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[rebecca_george]: absolutely,
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[mattie]: And and it was not a denial of reality. it was just we're goingnna keep fighting And
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[mattie]: so when that,
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[mattie]: when that was the final verdict, it still didn't feel real to me and honestly,
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[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah,
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[mattie]: Rebecca, like I went home. well, not home, but to the hotel that night and
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[mattie]: just prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed like this is what you do like you do.
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[mattie]: Miracles, like, make
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: him the miracle, like, make these people in this hospital be so in all of you
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[mattie]: Because of what you're about to do, and I know you can do. and I believe you can do
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[mattie]: that. You know their lives and their hearts are changed. And until the middle of the
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[mattie]: night that next night like I still believed he was goingnna do that. And
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[mattie]: and I think that's O. We're like. I'm just diving right in the deep end. I'm sorry,
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[mattie]: but
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[rebecca_george]: a police do, please do.
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[mattie]: I was like I've
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[mattie]: and I and people have asked like, Did you you? I mean, Do you feel like that prayer
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[mattie]: went unanswered and obviously in a physical way
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[mattie]: it did, But I, in a,
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[rebecca_george]: Yeah,
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[mattie]: in all the other ways he answered this miracle prayer? and in all these other ways
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[mattie]: people's hearts are being changed because of Beenn storyor,
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[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah,
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[mattie]: And it's not because he saved his body, it's because theyve watched me have to deal
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[mattie]: with everything after God let him go home, even though that's not what I wanted. So
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[mattie]: its, um, you know that was three years ago this past September. So September twenty
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[mattie]: eighteen, and
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[mattie]: this book is truly
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[mattie]: a behind the scenes. Look at me just grieving and me
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[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah,
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[mattie]: being forced to face really hard questions. like do we pray for miracles, and like,
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[mattie]: what is
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: Godpnned in Ben's death, and things that every person who believes in a good God and
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[mattie]: a sovereign God has to reconcile, or at least deal with when
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[rebecca_george]: Mhm.
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[mattie]: something tragic happened. So that's the book is truly just was burst out of my own
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[mattie]: journals, processing my pain and processing. you know, hard questions about me and
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[mattie]: about my future and about God. And you know I thought at one point if I have all
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[mattie]: these issues and all these doubts and all of these, you know desperate needs for
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[mattie]: answers than other people do, too. And so that's
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[rebecca_george]: yeah.
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[mattie]: that's this. What's in these pages?
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[rebecca_george]: yeah. well, and and it is Mattie, I mean, and I just want everybody to hear
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[rebecca_george]: you are a phenomenal writer. Y. and I, I love that it's been a life longng
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[rebecca_george]: dream of yours. It's been a life long dream of mine too. I'm working on my
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[rebecca_george]: first book right now and so I know what that process is like to walk with.
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[rebecca_george]: Walk with the Lord To to. It's one thing to have an idea, and it's another
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[rebecca_george]: thing to make it a thing that's going to serve other people, and I'm
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[rebecca_george]: curious. what was that path like for you? As you know, you've had this
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[rebecca_george]: lifelong dream, but
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[rebecca_george]: I, I know this isn't the book that you thought you'd write first, Right, And
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[rebecca_george]: it's the book that I wish we weren't here to talk about. I wish that we were
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[rebecca_george]: having a much easier conversation than we're having in this episode. But
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[rebecca_george]: what was that like for you to discover? Okay, God like this. this is the
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[rebecca_george]: thing that you want me to write first.
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[mattie]: Yeah, yeah, it was pretty. I mean, it was a very. It was a very slow and organic a
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[mattie]: process. I,
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[mattie]: I think somewhere in my heart when all of this happened there was a seed
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[mattie]: that
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[rebecca_george]: Mm,
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[mattie]: was planted, But I mean at the beginning you can't even begin to fathom. you know
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[mattie]: anything.
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: Besides how do I survive this And how do I keep moving forward one day at a time,
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[mattie]: And so, Part of my moving forward and trying to understand what I was just feeling,
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[mattie]: Um was journaling Because I love writing, So that's how it started, and truly For a
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[mattie]: year, probably six months to a year. I was just putting on paper, the questions, the
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[mattie]: struggles, the anger, the little moments of hope, and the God nods to remind myself
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[rebecca_george]: yeah, Mhm,
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[mattie]: that
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: he's still in this, even though it's hard to see sometimes
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[mattie]: he's still in this, even though it's hard to see sometimes
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[mattie]: and and truthfully after about six months, I think that was when I started to think
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[mattie]: Okay. Maybe this could be a book and sort of
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[rebecca_george]: M.
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[mattie]: started to like Pray about it and truly got like a pretty hard stop from the Holy
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[mattie]: Spirit At that point That was like you're not ready like I have to. You're
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: nowhere near to a place of healing where you can help heal other people, and you
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[mattie]: need to just keep this between you and me for a while. and so
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[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah,
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[mattie]: that was kind of hard to hear because from the beginning my my prayer was, and my
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[mattie]: mom writes this in the forewardor of the book
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[mattie]: I. The prayer always was God. Like make this big for your kingdom, like, if you're
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[mattie]: goingnna, make me go through this. The only way I can do it is if I see the purpose
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[mattie]: and if I see that our marriage is his death, and my pain matters to people. And but
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[mattie]: there was this holding pattern he had to put me in before
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[mattie]: he really gave me the green light to say okay, let's let's start to. Let's start to
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[mattie]: take our work from just inside you and start to sort of turn it outward. And um, so,
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[mattie]: after about a year and a half, I continued to prey on this and it kept being. Wait,
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[mattie]: wait, wait, and about a year and a half into it, Um. I was reading to C. S. Lewis is
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[mattie]: a grief, observed, Um, that he wrote after he lost lost his wife's cancer, and I
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[mattie]: remember reading it in so many places in there feeling like this is the most scene
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[mattie]: I've ever felt like he's putting words to everything.
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[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeahm, yeah,
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[mattie]: that I've just been sort of word vomiting in my journal for a year and a half. And
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[mattie]: if if if this man who is you know, was born a century and a half before me, who's no
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[mattie]: longer alive can have the most profound impact on me, feeling like I'm not alone in
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[mattie]: this, then like please, Lord, let my story do that and
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[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah,
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[mattie]: and that. And and I think at that point he had sort of gotten to where it. The The
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[mattie]: message was Okay, Let's let's do this like, let me lead you in this. Um, and so I
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[mattie]: just went back and like, looked at everything, all of my journals and just sort of
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[mattie]: tried to piece together. Okay, what are the similar themes? One of the similar
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[mattie]: questions like,
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[rebecca_george]: Mhm.
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[mattie]: what are the similar time lines and experiences And you know, from there, Uh, for
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[mattie]: the last year and a half, I've been working with publisher and
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: making it a full fledg book. And so
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[mattie]: it's been incredibly healing and casartic for me at every phase, But I think that
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[mattie]: there was a big
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: lesson for me in the waiting. I'm not a patient person and
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[rebecca_george]: mm.
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[mattie]: I wanted to see. I wanted to see purpose for my pain immediately, and I think that
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[mattie]: there is a
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[mattie]: kindness from God
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[mattie]: in
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[mattie]: preparing us beyond what we know. we need you know. And so I think he did that for
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[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah,
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[mattie]: me and I think if I had rushed, I wouldn't be able to sit here Uh, with peace and
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[mattie]: wisdom in the same way and have this conversation with you. So
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[mattie]: that's sort of in the last three years.
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[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah, there's a. There's a book idea that's been stirring in me, but I
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[rebecca_george]: told a friend the other day like it'll probably be years before I write this
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[rebecca_george]: because I want it to be a scar and not a wound. you
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[rebecca_george]: know like I think there's just there's just power in that and I think we can
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[mattie]: Yeah, absolutely,
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[rebecca_george]: stand with more confidence as a
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[mattie]: Mhm.
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[rebecca_george]: writer when we're in that place. So I, I love that you were obedient to that
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[rebecca_george]: that holding pattern. Even I know that was hard, Um, jumping in, jumping
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[rebecca_george]: into the book. I, just when I was reading, I had a pat of sticky notes handy
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[rebecca_george]: and I just wrote questions like as I thought of them, because I didn't want
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[rebecca_george]: to forget anything. And then I started realizing I had like twenty sticky
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[rebecca_george]: notes in the book by like chapter three. And so preparing for this was
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[rebecca_george]: really hard because I have so many questions for you. One of the first
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[rebecca_george]: things that really stood out to me that I know, you know, our friends,
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[rebecca_george]: listening, who have experienced grief know a lot about is this illusion of
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[rebecca_george]: control
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[rebecca_george]: that that that we lose right when we're going through the grieving process
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[rebecca_george]: And how that just kind of slips away, Um in the midst of a story like yours
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[rebecca_george]: And I'm curious. Like what was it like
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[rebecca_george]: to lose that illusion? And and why does that idea matter that really like
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[rebecca_george]: that control really isn't there. And how do we live? You know, in that truth
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[rebecca_george]: on the other side of it, does that make sense?
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[mattie]: Yeah, totally. um. the reason I think I started the book that way is because I think
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[mattie]: that was one of
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[mattie]: one of the more painful
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[mattie]: things I had to grieve at the beginning. Obviously, in addition to Ben in our life.
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[mattie]: But what? the? There's a million things you have to grieve and lay down when you
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[mattie]: lose someone. that's an intimate part of your life, And I think early on that was
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[mattie]: the feeling that I felt was. I am completely out of control of my life and I
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[rebecca_george]: Mhm,
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[mattie]: think, especially because I hadn't gone through anything really tragic. Um when
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[mattie]: things go well, you feel like you sort of have a heavier handed thing that than you
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[mattie]: do. And
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[mattie]: obviously
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[mattie]: I am a proponent of preparation and plans and those are important and you have to
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[mattie]: live life that way. But I think the biggest difference for me now is that I don't
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[mattie]: have a death grip on those things, because it doesn't matter.
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: It doesn't matter how hard you hold your plan. It doesn't matter how hard you hold
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[mattie]: your people like life is broken and life happens and I think at the beginning I felt
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[mattie]: so
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[mattie]: frustrated about that because it made me feel like Why do we even plan? Why do we
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[mattie]: even do anything you know You get in that sort of
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[mattie]: despondent place.
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: But from there I think it was actually
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[mattie]: you know, kind of ta. It felt eventually like a relief. It, eventually it. It
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[mattie]: originally felt very much like a frustration, and sort of like cruel. You know from
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[mattie]: God. Like
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[rebecca_george]: Mhm,
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[mattie]: why do we what we have? this free will? But like why does it matter honestly was the
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[mattie]: darkest place you go to and then eventually it. It brought me to a place where you
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[mattie]: know what I can just exhale. Because
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[mattie]: this is all in your hands, and that does feel
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: scary because we have a false sense of safety when it's in our hands. But
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[mattie]: ▁ultimately, that loss of control
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[mattie]: pushed me toward a life that is more about surrender and that is a really really
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[mattie]: safe
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[mattie]: place to be. But I think it takes losing something that drastic to know that you're
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[mattie]: not in control Be cause. we can manipulate even hard situations we can manipulate to
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[mattie]: try to make easier. But when there's
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: nothing I could have done to fix anything about my life, it's like
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[rebecca_george]: mm.
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[mattie]: you know what. it's all yours. I mean, I have no choice, and that's a good thing in
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[mattie]: the end, but it is a very scary thing
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[mattie]: when it happened.
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[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. and kind of going off of that, I, I earmarked
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[rebecca_george]: a page in the book and I hope it's O. Okay if I read a few
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[mattie]: No, please. Yes,
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[rebecca_george]: paragraphs that just totally wrecked me. Um, kind of related to this and
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[rebecca_george]: just watching you wrestle through.
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[rebecca_george]: How do I see God's goodness in the midst of of all this, So I'm going to
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[rebecca_george]: read this horse. I'm starting to see that the real subtitle of the Bible is
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[rebecca_george]: lemons on Friday, but we never lead with these promises for suffering. We
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[rebecca_george]: never start with the agony of crucifixction, Friday, but with the glory of
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[rebecca_george]: Resurrection, Sunday, we do all we can to not live our lives in the fear of
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[rebecca_george]: Friday or Saturday, but to hoard herald and hold captive the joy of Sunday.
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[rebecca_george]: Why wouldn't we? we long for Sunday, just as we long for lemonade, sour
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[rebecca_george]: lemons, suffering and death aren't much of a sales pitch to follow Christ,
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[rebecca_george]: come hurt with us, come bear the broken world's bullets with us. These are
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[rebecca_george]: words you'll never see on the Church's Marquis sign, but the truth is in
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[rebecca_george]: vain. attempts to evangelize and convert. We've diluded the Gospel into
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[rebecca_george]: sugar water, for the sake of the Great Commission, and trying to pacify our
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[rebecca_george]: doubts and bolster our broken hearts, we hold tight to the promises,
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[rebecca_george]: victorious endings, but hush the their assurance of painful beginnings. That
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[rebecca_george]: is until life gives us lemons, the bitter stomach turning smile, stealing
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[rebecca_george]: lemons that Scripture reveals over and over again in the lives of its most
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[rebecca_george]: celebrated saints. This is where we doubt God's goodness, isn't it? In our
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[rebecca_george]: times of ravenous need, He sits on his throne and watch Jess Grimas, while
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[rebecca_george]: we eat lemons. Our deepest desire is for him to take them away to give us a
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[rebecca_george]: single bite of something sweet. We hurt. And we wonder, did God plan for our
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[rebecca_george]: pain, or did he sit back and allow it? Neither picture shows us much of a
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[rebecca_george]: loving good. God does it? Don't funerals of twenty eight year old husbands
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[rebecca_george]: give legitimate cause for the universal cry with all this suffering? How can
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[rebecca_george]: God be good? I wish I had a fool. Proooof, pastor approved. answer to that
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[rebecca_george]: question both for your sake and mine. I don't. what I can tell you is that
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[rebecca_george]: in the middle of my worst nightmare come true. Even when I didn't know how
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[rebecca_george]: to talk to God or trust God, God continued to show me he was good
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[rebecca_george]: and
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[rebecca_george]: I just want to hear more about that. Like how, how, tell me like, Tell us.
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[rebecca_george]: how did he show you that he was good in the midst of that moment and I just
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[rebecca_george]: want to hear you. You process that because I can't help but think somebody
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[rebecca_george]: is listening that may be in the midst of something really similar.
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[mattie]: yeah,
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[mattie]: I, um, I think what the shift had to be for me was that you know naturally when we
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[mattie]: think of God and his goodness, we
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[mattie]: imagine that playing out in terms of the ▁quote, unquote good things he does in our
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[mattie]: lives, and the good things
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[rebecca_george]: Yeah,
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[mattie]: that he gives us, and those are part of his goodness like he's a generous God and a
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[mattie]: got a provision in that he loves to bless us because he loves us,
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: But I think that that the danger is when that's how we define his goodness when in
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[mattie]: reality it's just a fact of his goodness that we can't understand, And I think what
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[mattie]: I mean in that passage, and what I really
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[mattie]: felt, and I mean, palpably felt, Um,
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[rebecca_george]: Mhm.
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[mattie]: especially in the early days of grieving is not
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[mattie]: not that God let them die for my good, I. I don't believe that. I think it's a
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[mattie]: broken world. I think accidents happening, people flip, and yes, as a sovereign god
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[mattie]: did he make a choice to not physically make Ben's body a miracle. Yes, he did and
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[mattie]: that does not feel good to me. Um,
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: but
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[mattie]: his character is always good, and I think because
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[mattie]: he is a intimate god and a personal god and a tender god, I started to feel his
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[mattie]: goodness in the way that he dealt with me
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[mattie]: in the very very worst days of my pain. And somehow
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[mattie]: that reminded me, and that was enough for me to know that he was good, even though
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[mattie]: his actions didn't feel good. And I, I did a talk with a group, a widow group that I
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[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeahm,
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[mattie]: work with, and sort of was just encouraging them when you feel like what God has not
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[mattie]: done in your life. It does not feel good. Um, kind
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[rebecca_george]: yeah,
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[mattie]: of treat it like someone that you love most. You know the people that you love most,
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[mattie]: your, you know, husband, your children, your parents, your siblings, whatever, the
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[mattie]: people that you know their heart, and you really trust and you know that there's
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[mattie]: nothing they would do to intentionally harm you. They still hurt you. We're still
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[mattie]: fallen people. They still say things they shouldn't. they still are inconsiderate.
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[mattie]: Whatever, and when people like that hurt me, I have to remind myself, I know their
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[mattie]: heart and I know their heart is good, even though their actions don't feel good, and
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[mattie]: we have to do that with God. And the way that you do that
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[rebecca_george]: yeah. yeah.
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[mattie]: is by going to his word and seeing the person of Jesus and really asking him like
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[mattie]: for what you need, and he shows up and he is good. I mean, I, I don't know how else
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[mattie]: to say it. Besides, even when his actions don't feel like they are, his heart is
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[mattie]: good, and I, I felt that in such extreme ways that I never did before, and even just
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[mattie]: in words from a friend that I knew didn't come from them that they wouldn't normally
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[mattie]: say to me, or when somebody provided or did something for me, or I talk a lot about
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[mattie]: nature. In the book I. I. I never felt God in creation, and
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[mattie]: such a
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[mattie]: such an encompassing way as in my grief, and I think that's something that's really
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[mattie]: good like you see his faithfulness in the world around you. And so it that helped me
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[mattie]: trust. Okay, you're You're faithful with these flowers and the sunset and the tides
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[mattie]: and all this stuff, And I know that
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[rebecca_george]: yeah.
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[mattie]: means you'll be even more faithful to me, So that was a very long winded answer, But
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[mattie]: I think it's about his heart.
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[rebecca_george]: I wanted. I.
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[rebecca_george]: yeah. yeah, that's so good and I want to jump back to
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[rebecca_george]: this one specific place. You're talking about Bens time in the hospital, and
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[rebecca_george]: specifically how you chose to hope, even when you didn't know how the story
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[rebecca_george]: was going to end. I think we all, we all going to face moments like that, no
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[rebecca_george]: matter how God. ▁ultimately answers the prayer right. And so how did you?
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[rebecca_george]: How did you wrestle with that in? you know, In that spefic, you know, few
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[rebecca_george]: days. And how would you want to encourage somebody Now that you know we can
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[rebecca_george]: look back in retrospect. How would you want to encourage somebody that's
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[rebecca_george]: there now?
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[mattie]: Ah, I mean, I would say
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[mattie]: you know, just as a disclaimer, I'm not a huge warrior just by nature. I'm not like
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[mattie]: patting my own back. I just I'm a pretty
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[rebecca_george]: Yeah,
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[mattie]: hopeful person in general, Like almost to a fault. I want to see the good, so I
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00:23:21,872 --> 00:23:22,872
[mattie]: think that is
391
00:23:22,340 --> 00:23:23,340
[rebecca_george]: yeah,
392
00:23:22,772 --> 00:23:24,772
[mattie]: just in sort of my nature. But um,
393
00:23:25,972 --> 00:23:30,532
[mattie]: I, when I look back, I, I think like what good would have come if I had
394
00:23:31,732 --> 00:23:35,572
[mattie]: focused on the worst outcome that could have happened? Like how would that have
395
00:23:35,732 --> 00:23:38,612
[mattie]: helped? I think Is is is what my
396
00:23:40,212 --> 00:23:44,852
[mattie]: perspective was in that. It's just what Jesus says like About who, by worrying can
397
00:23:45,012 --> 00:23:49,332
[mattie]: have an all to your life. You can't, and that's not to flipantly dis, dismiss worry,
398
00:23:49,492 --> 00:23:53,012
[mattie]: or like real negative outcome. But I think in those days
399
00:23:53,992 --> 00:23:54,992
[mattie]: what? what
400
00:23:55,892 --> 00:24:01,892
[mattie]: empowered me the most and what gave me the most strength and energy? What to claim?
401
00:24:02,292 --> 00:24:07,492
[mattie]: The ▁ultimate best outcome that I knew could happen. I mean, If you really
402
00:24:07,140 --> 00:24:08,140
[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah,
403
00:24:08,292 --> 00:24:12,692
[mattie]: believe in a God who redeems everything which he does in some way to me, I felt
404
00:24:12,852 --> 00:24:16,372
[mattie]: better saying Okay, redeem his body on this earth. That's the best
405
00:24:16,020 --> 00:24:17,020
[rebecca_george]: yeah,
406
00:24:16,532 --> 00:24:21,332
[mattie]: thing I can imagine happening. And Yes, does that set you up to feel
407
00:24:22,772 --> 00:24:27,732
[mattie]: more let down or betrayed when the prayer's not answered in the way that you prayed.
408
00:24:27,892 --> 00:24:31,732
[mattie]: Yeah, and I experienced that and my family experienced that his family experienced
409
00:24:31,892 --> 00:24:38,532
[mattie]: that. But I think why would you not come boldly and ask for the the the best of the
410
00:24:38,692 --> 00:24:44,052
[mattie]: best Because when God hears that he hears, I trust you. You know, I trust you above
411
00:24:44,212 --> 00:24:49,492
[mattie]: everything else in above circumstance, and it is really really painful when you
412
00:24:49,572 --> 00:24:54,932
[mattie]: don't get that answer. But I think that every prayer you pray builds trust with God.
413
00:24:55,092 --> 00:24:59,092
[mattie]: And so why would you temper them down just because you're afraid you might get
414
00:24:59,172 --> 00:25:04,132
[mattie]: disappointed or you're afraid of the worst outcome that could happen, Because even
415
00:25:04,292 --> 00:25:05,812
[mattie]: when the worst outcome happens,
416
00:25:06,852 --> 00:25:11,652
[mattie]: you're going to Ne. you're going to need him. So why not ask for everything you know
417
00:25:11,812 --> 00:25:16,852
[mattie]: he can do. And and but y, but just like the plans, like you have to hold it with an
418
00:25:16,932 --> 00:25:23,172
[mattie]: open hand. and you know I wasn't I wasn't ready for death to be the outcome. And
419
00:25:24,852 --> 00:25:29,412
[mattie]: if if that's what I had been anticipating, I just think that those days would have
420
00:25:29,112 --> 00:25:30,112
[mattie]: been
421
00:25:31,472 --> 00:25:32,472
[mattie]: so much more.
422
00:25:33,732 --> 00:25:35,812
[mattie]: I don't know that I could have done it. honestly.
423
00:25:37,220 --> 00:25:38,220
[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah,
424
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,000
[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah. yeah. And it, you know, And we've seen
425
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:48,800
[rebecca_george]: evidence of God doing both right. We've seen evidence of God working through
426
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:55,280
[rebecca_george]: prayer, and by going to his throne, and by praying, him acting in a certain
427
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,120
[rebecca_george]: way, and I have had times in my life where I have prayed fervently for
428
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,840
[rebecca_george]: something that was not God's best for me, and I did not understand. I didn't
429
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:05,360
[rebecca_george]: understand the know. Um.
430
00:26:05,032 --> 00:26:06,032
[mattie]: Mhm,
431
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,200
[rebecca_george]: and it was not nearly as hard of a know as what we're talking about today.
432
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,080
[rebecca_george]: Um, and we, we don't see it all right like there was no way that you could
433
00:26:13,860 --> 00:26:14,860
[rebecca_george]: see
434
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:20,480
[rebecca_george]: this book that I hold in my hands in the midst of that season, and I can't.
435
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,320
[rebecca_george]: even. I can't fathom the number
436
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,160
[rebecca_george]: of of wives that have this in their hands, that have this encouragement now.
437
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,320
[rebecca_george]: Because of what you went through.
438
00:26:30,552 --> 00:26:31,552
[mattie]: Mhm,
439
00:26:30,820 --> 00:26:31,820
[rebecca_george]: Um,
440
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,120
[rebecca_george]: God knew like he, he knew how he was going to be faithful in your story, and
441
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,760
[rebecca_george]: how he wanted to use it for his glory and for his kingdom, and how it would
442
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,000
[rebecca_george]: matter right, Like we talked about in the very beginning, And I think those
443
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,960
[rebecca_george]: are the things that we. we love to see fruit Right. We love to see the
444
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,520
[rebecca_george]: outcome and and what he's going to do through it. and Um, some of that we
445
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,880
[rebecca_george]: don't get to seeal heaven. and I'm I'm glad that he gives you this glimpse
446
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:02,800
[rebecca_george]: of of the fruit that came from that part of your life. Um. but that is
447
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,400
[rebecca_george]: something that we have to wrestle with, and one of the other pieces that I
448
00:27:06,180 --> 00:27:07,180
[rebecca_george]: thought was
449
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,520
[rebecca_george]: so wise for you to include in the book. And and you reference Lisa Turkurst,
450
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,040
[rebecca_george]: I forget which which book it is that she writes it in about little funerals.
451
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,280
[rebecca_george]: I want to talk about that for a minute. Um, so for people who haven't read
452
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,960
[rebecca_george]: the book yet, you talk about having little funerals for the way his life now
453
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,440
[rebecca_george]: looks differently than you had expected. and in this section you say the
454
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,400
[rebecca_george]: Lord winces each time he watches us live out another another little funeral.
455
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:37,120
[rebecca_george]: He hurts for us, his beloved children when we must engage in a new battle
456
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,800
[rebecca_george]: with grief and give up another piece of what we wanted our life to look
457
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:46,240
[rebecca_george]: like, but he also smiles because he knows we are being reshaped restored and
458
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,520
[rebecca_george]: reworked into something even more resilient and beautiful.
459
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,280
[rebecca_george]: I'm curious. How do you think that
460
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:59,680
[rebecca_george]: that thought of of stopping to grieve that that little thing along the way,
461
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,040
[rebecca_george]: How how has that helped to you become more resilient throughout this whole
462
00:28:02,820 --> 00:28:03,820
[rebecca_george]: process?
463
00:28:04,612 --> 00:28:07,572
[mattie]: Oh, that's a good way to ask that. Um, I think
464
00:28:09,012 --> 00:28:16,852
[mattie]: I think, because in in a spiritual sense, each little funeral is another reminder of
465
00:28:16,932 --> 00:28:22,532
[mattie]: God's faithfulness, because he shows up in them and he gives you endurance once
466
00:28:22,852 --> 00:28:24,052
[mattie]: again and he heals
467
00:28:24,020 --> 00:28:25,020
[rebecca_george]: Mhm.
468
00:28:24,452 --> 00:28:28,612
[mattie]: another distinct wound once again. And so I think in
469
00:28:29,812 --> 00:28:32,692
[mattie]: En grieving one th one thing after another.
470
00:28:33,892 --> 00:28:37,412
[mattie]: In a way it feels like this is so cruel. Why do I have to do this over and over and
471
00:28:37,412 --> 00:28:39,972
[mattie]: honestly, that's sort of how it felt and that's where the whole idea came from.
472
00:28:40,052 --> 00:28:43,492
[mattie]: Because I read the Lisa thing initially and I was like I hate this like this is not.
473
00:28:43,652 --> 00:28:46,132
[mattie]: I don't want to keep grieving like I don't want to do this over and
474
00:28:45,700 --> 00:28:46,700
[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah,
475
00:28:46,212 --> 00:28:50,052
[mattie]: over. I don't want at every turn something that should feel like celebration feels
476
00:28:50,132 --> 00:28:56,452
[mattie]: like sorrow and I'm over it like I'm over it. but in in du and enduring and doing
477
00:28:56,612 --> 00:29:01,412
[mattie]: that and inviting, go into each of those basets of our life that we have to give up
478
00:29:01,652 --> 00:29:04,212
[mattie]: that we dreamed of that we plan for that we wanted.
479
00:29:05,412 --> 00:29:09,492
[mattie]: His good heart shows up in in it with us again, you know, And so it just creates
480
00:29:06,140 --> 00:29:07,140
[rebecca_george]: yeah, Mhm,
481
00:29:09,312 --> 00:29:10,312
[mattie]: this track
482
00:29:09,540 --> 00:29:10,540
[rebecca_george]: yeah,
483
00:29:10,212 --> 00:29:14,372
[mattie]: record of Yeah, this life is hard and I am going to let bad things happen because of
484
00:29:14,452 --> 00:29:18,372
[mattie]: reasons you can't understand, but I'm always going to be with you in it, and that's
485
00:29:18,612 --> 00:29:23,492
[mattie]: so valuable. And and even just from a practical standpoint, it was like a reminder
486
00:29:23,392 --> 00:29:24,392
[mattie]: for me
487
00:29:25,092 --> 00:29:28,692
[mattie]: that I could make it like I could do this again, and that
488
00:29:28,420 --> 00:29:29,420
[rebecca_george]: m.
489
00:29:28,932 --> 00:29:32,292
[mattie]: nothing that happens to us in this life that we can't control.
490
00:29:33,332 --> 00:29:37,972
[mattie]: Can ▁ultimately be to our demise if we don't let it, and if we let Jesus do it with
491
00:29:38,132 --> 00:29:43,492
[mattie]: us, And so it, it sort of just felt like it built my confidence in the fact that I
492
00:29:43,572 --> 00:29:49,092
[mattie]: can endure this life with the Lord, And it also built my confidence and the Lord is
493
00:29:49,172 --> 00:29:53,252
[mattie]: never going to leave me in any of these little funerals in any of these things, But
494
00:29:53,492 --> 00:29:57,732
[mattie]: it's man. It's the hardest. it's I don't know. It's the hardsest part 'cause all
495
00:29:57,892 --> 00:30:03,972
[mattie]: it's hard. But any person or thing or o ity or season that you lose is not just
496
00:30:04,132 --> 00:30:07,812
[mattie]: about the thing or the person that's gone. It's about the ripple effect that it has
497
00:30:07,972 --> 00:30:09,732
[mattie]: on the rest of your life, and that's sort of
498
00:30:09,380 --> 00:30:10,380
[rebecca_george]: yeah,
499
00:30:09,812 --> 00:30:15,252
[mattie]: what that's about. And you know three years later there are things that I plan to do
500
00:30:15,412 --> 00:30:20,452
[mattie]: with. Been that I'm watching people in my life do with their husbands. That I have
501
00:30:20,612 --> 00:30:25,172
[mattie]: to have to take a second and grieve it and be like. You know what. I still hate
502
00:30:25,412 --> 00:30:29,972
[mattie]: this, but I still know that this is a wound that you're working to to make a scar.
503
00:30:30,452 --> 00:30:31,972
[mattie]: And that is the thing
504
00:30:31,580 --> 00:30:32,580
[rebecca_george]: mm,
505
00:30:32,132 --> 00:30:34,612
[mattie]: that takes time. And you know
506
00:30:34,220 --> 00:30:35,220
[rebecca_george]: yp,
507
00:30:34,692 --> 00:30:38,372
[mattie]: if we could feel the whole impact of our pain and it really was one big funeral like
508
00:30:38,372 --> 00:30:40,932
[mattie]: we wouldn't survive. I know that now it
509
00:30:40,580 --> 00:30:41,580
[rebecca_george]: yeah,
510
00:30:41,092 --> 00:30:42,132
[mattie]: has to be spaced out
511
00:30:41,700 --> 00:30:42,700
[rebecca_george]: yeah.
512
00:30:42,072 --> 00:30:43,072
[mattie]: and
513
00:30:43,512 --> 00:30:44,512
[mattie]: yeah,
514
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:50,400
[rebecca_george]: M. one of my friends was a few years ago in counseling and she called me
515
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,640
[rebecca_george]: after she left her counselor once and she said,
516
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,480
[rebecca_george]: You know, I think this is something her counselor had told her. She said. I
517
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,280
[rebecca_george]: think what you're seeing happen over time is you're seeing the pressure
518
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:04,560
[rebecca_george]: valve release,
519
00:31:04,952 --> 00:31:05,952
[mattie]: yeah,
520
00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:06,500
[rebecca_george]: but not all at once.
521
00:31:06,632 --> 00:31:07,632
[mattie]: Mhm.
522
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:12,320
[rebecca_george]: And So when we come in this room and and this happens And and she, I think
523
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,600
[rebecca_george]: she was. She was upset, Because she, every time she'll go to counseling, she
524
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,960
[rebecca_george]: would just she would just ball her eyes out, and and her counselor would say
525
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,840
[rebecca_george]: like praise God that the pressure valve doesn't explode right, Like
526
00:31:23,592 --> 00:31:24,592
[mattie]: yeah,
527
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,520
[rebecca_george]: I thought that was the best metaphor. And so she said, like, every time we
528
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,680
[rebecca_george]: come in this room, this is an opportunity
529
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,760
[rebecca_george]: to slowly turn that valve and allow the pressure to release a little bit at
530
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,000
[rebecca_george]: a time. And I just thought that was so powerful because I think sometimes
531
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,160
[rebecca_george]: and I know I have a little bit of this in my personality. I will just shove
532
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,840
[rebecca_george]: it under the rug and and not process it. I think that's one thing that we
533
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:53,440
[rebecca_george]: can do that leads to a lot of bitterness and a lot of resentment, and um a
534
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,880
[rebecca_george]: whole host of other problems, Right. And so I think there's just such power
535
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,800
[rebecca_george]: in stopping and letting that pressure valve release and having those little
536
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,280
[rebecca_george]: funerals over time. So I just think that such a powerful thought and I'm
537
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,200
[rebecca_george]: curious. You know, as you look back over the last three years,
538
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,040
[rebecca_george]: how have people loved you well
539
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:19,120
[rebecca_george]: throughout your loss. How would you want to encourage people who maybe have
540
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,840
[rebecca_george]: a friend or a family member who, walking through something similar.
541
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,520
[rebecca_george]: What was what was a gift to you? What was not helpful?
542
00:32:25,752 --> 00:32:26,752
[mattie]: Mhm.
543
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,080
[rebecca_george]: Like you can even talk about that if you want to. Um, I, just, I just want
544
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:31,440
[rebecca_george]: to know how we can love people. Well,
545
00:32:32,772 --> 00:32:38,292
[mattie]: I think this is going to sound pretty simple and probably not that helpful. but um,
546
00:32:39,412 --> 00:32:44,212
[mattie]: all I wanted for a long time was for people to show up and be there. I just didn't
547
00:32:44,372 --> 00:32:46,692
[mattie]: want to be alone and my
548
00:32:46,340 --> 00:32:47,340
[rebecca_george]: yeah,
549
00:32:47,092 --> 00:32:51,812
[mattie]: people did that tremendously well and I, I, I guess the encouragement is it's it's
550
00:32:52,292 --> 00:32:57,252
[mattie]: they don't. Mm. You don't have to do as much as you feel like. I think more than
551
00:32:56,900 --> 00:32:57,900
[rebecca_george]: yeah,
552
00:32:57,412 --> 00:33:01,252
[mattie]: anything people. There's especially in a situation that's really devastating like
553
00:33:01,412 --> 00:33:05,252
[mattie]: death. There's nothing you can do like you can't fix anything. And I think God bless
554
00:33:05,492 --> 00:33:09,332
[mattie]: all my people. wanted so badly to be able to fix something. It was just like there's
555
00:33:09,492 --> 00:33:12,132
[mattie]: nothing to fix. I just don't want to be alone.
556
00:33:11,860 --> 00:33:12,860
[rebecca_george]: yeah,
557
00:33:12,292 --> 00:33:16,052
[mattie]: And so you know, However, the person that you love
558
00:33:17,172 --> 00:33:22,612
[mattie]: you know, whatever their circumstances, any time that I think you can afford them
559
00:33:22,692 --> 00:33:26,852
[mattie]: the choice. Do you want to be alone or do you want someone to be with you? That's
560
00:33:27,012 --> 00:33:31,092
[mattie]: something that was really really practical that my friends and family did really
561
00:33:31,252 --> 00:33:35,332
[mattie]: well. I mean, most of them are pretty type A. So they had an actual spreadsheet for
562
00:33:35,412 --> 00:33:39,732
[mattie]: like probably six to eight weeks That everybody was on call for a day. And
563
00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:40,700
[rebecca_george]: I love that.
564
00:33:40,132 --> 00:33:44,452
[mattie]: if I, if I needed them, they were there and if I felt like I'm I'm okay, I, I need
565
00:33:44,532 --> 00:33:47,892
[mattie]: my own space today. I would call them off and I wouldn't come, and that was so
566
00:33:48,132 --> 00:33:53,252
[mattie]: practical and kind, but I just felt so loved and the fear of, oh my gosh, what if I
567
00:33:53,332 --> 00:33:57,812
[mattie]: end up by myself and I'm depressed in having a melt down and I can't get anybody
568
00:33:57,972 --> 00:34:00,532
[mattie]: That wasn't a reality for me for two months and that was
569
00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:01,100
[rebecca_george]: Yeah,
570
00:34:00,852 --> 00:34:05,892
[mattie]: so practical And you know another thing that I tell people is again a practical
571
00:34:06,052 --> 00:34:13,092
[mattie]: level. Your mind is so chaotic and so exhausted when you're grieving that open into
572
00:34:13,060 --> 00:34:14,060
[rebecca_george]: Mhmm,
573
00:34:13,332 --> 00:34:15,972
[mattie]: dancers are hard. Like, hey, what can I do for you?
574
00:34:16,132 --> 00:34:19,492
[mattie]: Today is really hard and I, you don't really know the answer. But when people
575
00:34:19,732 --> 00:34:24,612
[mattie]: started to say hey, I've got a couple of hours this afternoon. Could I come to your
576
00:34:24,692 --> 00:34:29,172
[mattie]: laundry or would you want to go on a walk or neither that I could do? So, I think
577
00:34:29,192 --> 00:34:30,192
[mattie]: like closed ended
578
00:34:29,900 --> 00:34:30,900
[rebecca_george]: yp,
579
00:34:30,372 --> 00:34:35,892
[mattie]: questions and then truthfully I remember one specifically, uh, asking one day like
580
00:34:35,972 --> 00:34:39,732
[mattie]: she started to kind of ramble about her work or her husband or something, and she
581
00:34:39,812 --> 00:34:40,932
[mattie]: was like, Oh, my gosh. I'm
582
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:41,500
[rebecca_george]: Mhm,
583
00:34:41,012 --> 00:34:45,012
[mattie]: so sorry, like I don't mean to put all my stuff on you. and I was like, Honestly,
584
00:34:45,092 --> 00:34:48,532
[mattie]: I'm so happy you tell me all of the crap that's going wrong in your life. Because I
585
00:34:48,692 --> 00:34:51,732
[mattie]: just want to be in your life for a minute. So I think then they started
586
00:34:51,300 --> 00:34:52,300
[rebecca_george]: Yeah,
587
00:34:51,892 --> 00:34:56,532
[mattie]: to approach me and say hey, Do you want to talk like about you today? Do you want to
588
00:34:56,612 --> 00:34:59,892
[mattie]: talk about Ben today? or do you want to just kind of like get lost in my life for a
589
00:34:59,972 --> 00:35:01,812
[mattie]: minute And it it's different on either day, But
590
00:35:01,380 --> 00:35:02,380
[rebecca_george]: yeah,
591
00:35:01,892 --> 00:35:05,412
[mattie]: that was such a kind, helpful thing, and sort of
592
00:35:05,492 --> 00:35:09,092
[mattie]: rhythm to establish with them. Yeahcause, Sometimes you just like I would wa to call
593
00:35:05,620 --> 00:35:06,620
[rebecca_george]: that is kind.
594
00:35:09,172 --> 00:35:11,812
[mattie]: you and be like Rebecca'. Tell me everything that's going on in your life, so I
595
00:35:11,972 --> 00:35:14,132
[mattie]: forget about mine for a second, and some
596
00:35:14,180 --> 00:35:15,180
[rebecca_george]: Yeah, yeah,
597
00:35:14,212 --> 00:35:18,612
[mattie]: days I would. I would want to tell you about Ben and how was feeling, so I hope
598
00:35:18,852 --> 00:35:21,572
[mattie]: those are you know, practical takeaways for people.
599
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:28,240
[rebecca_george]: that is very helpful. We have a friend. so my husband's a pastor and we both
600
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,160
[rebecca_george]: moved down when we got married to uh little town in south Mississippi, where
601
00:35:32,240 --> 00:35:35,520
[rebecca_george]: we're serving right now and my husband has a couple of friends, and I think
602
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,760
[rebecca_george]: this is so kind in a totally different life circumstance. But ministry is
603
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:45,040
[rebecca_george]: hard right like church is hard and he has a friend that will say to him.
604
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,760
[rebecca_george]: If you want to talk about the church, we'll talk about the church. If you
605
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,080
[rebecca_george]: want to talk about like literally anything about the church, we'll talk
606
00:35:53,672 --> 00:35:54,672
[mattie]: Yeah,
607
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,000
[rebecca_george]: about literally anything but the church, you know.
608
00:35:55,672 --> 00:35:56,672
[mattie]: Yes,
609
00:35:56,240 --> 00:36:00,160
[rebecca_george]: And and I've always thought that was the most kind way to be a friend. and
610
00:36:00,340 --> 00:36:01,340
[rebecca_george]: um,
611
00:36:00,472 --> 00:36:01,472
[mattie]: definitely,
612
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:06,160
[rebecca_george]: no, ma. I think you can. You can take that concept and put it in a lot of
613
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,560
[rebecca_george]: different areas of friendship or life circumstance, And I think that's so
614
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,080
[rebecca_george]: good, so I love that. Well, you mentioned this kind of at the beginning of
615
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,600
[rebecca_george]: the episode, but I loved. Um, the forward that your parents wrote, and one
616
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:22,000
[rebecca_george]: of the things that they talk about is you know their prayer for your story,
617
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,240
[rebecca_george]: and I'll read this little ▁quote. from them. No parents would ever wish this
618
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,840
[rebecca_george]: kind of grief and heartbak on their child. We would turn back time in a
619
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,640
[rebecca_george]: second if we could, but we can already see how our loving heavenly Father is
620
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:38,880
[rebecca_george]: using Mattie's story for good and for his purposes, and we know that Ben's
621
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,480
[rebecca_george]: legacy of faith will live on through her words. And
622
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,440
[rebecca_george]: like, I just, I love seeing how that's happening and I just want to hear
623
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,120
[rebecca_george]: like How does that encourage you?
624
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,160
[rebecca_george]: Even though it, it doesn't take the pain away, and it doesn't take away from
625
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:59,200
[rebecca_george]: the loss. Like, how does it encourage you to know right now there are women
626
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,800
[rebecca_george]: reading your book and women and men reading your book that are walking
627
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,640
[rebecca_george]: through something similar and you get to be a part of that You know.
628
00:37:07,572 --> 00:37:12,212
[mattie]: yeah, yeah, I. I. I said too before we started recording. Like this whole experience
629
00:37:12,692 --> 00:37:14,292
[mattie]: is just so powerful
630
00:37:15,032 --> 00:37:16,032
[mattie]: in my
631
00:37:16,932 --> 00:37:22,612
[mattie]: heart break, because it reminds me that my pain matters and his
632
00:37:22,340 --> 00:37:23,340
[rebecca_george]: yeah.
633
00:37:22,772 --> 00:37:25,412
[mattie]: death matters, and our marriage matters, and I think
634
00:37:26,452 --> 00:37:30,612
[mattie]: just as humans, the the the worst kind of pain we can experience is one that we
635
00:37:30,612 --> 00:37:32,532
[mattie]: don't think matters. and I think
636
00:37:32,260 --> 00:37:33,260
[rebecca_george]: Mm.
637
00:37:32,772 --> 00:37:37,012
[mattie]: just in like In God's hands, That would be what I would tell people. Is your pain
638
00:37:37,252 --> 00:37:41,012
[mattie]: always always matters like? Is it going to look like a book? Maybe not. Is it going
639
00:37:41,012 --> 00:37:42,212
[mattie]: to look like a ministry? Maybe not
640
00:37:41,780 --> 00:37:42,780
[rebecca_george]: yeah,
641
00:37:42,292 --> 00:37:47,332
[mattie]: are going to be on podcast? Maybe not, but there will be a person or people that
642
00:37:47,732 --> 00:37:50,532
[mattie]: walk through what you walk through, and they need you to
643
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:51,100
[rebecca_george]: Mhm,
644
00:37:50,692 --> 00:37:54,532
[mattie]: be the hope that they can't see for themselves yet, and that and of itself
645
00:37:55,652 --> 00:37:58,372
[mattie]: is redemption like that. and of itself is
646
00:37:57,940 --> 00:37:58,940
[rebecca_george]: yeah,
647
00:37:58,532 --> 00:38:01,492
[mattie]: the most powerful encouragement and the most
648
00:38:02,532 --> 00:38:07,412
[mattie]: I don't know. The most precious fuel for resilience is what I've experienced,
649
00:38:07,732 --> 00:38:12,452
[mattie]: because again it makes you know that your pain matters and there's just something
650
00:38:12,392 --> 00:38:13,392
[mattie]: about
651
00:38:14,452 --> 00:38:17,092
[mattie]: being able to be a light for someone else that
652
00:38:18,532 --> 00:38:24,292
[mattie]: makes me a little more okay with. you know what happened to me and not that it
653
00:38:24,452 --> 00:38:27,332
[mattie]: matters if I'm okay with it, but it's just I don't know
654
00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:28,300
[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah,
655
00:38:27,732 --> 00:38:31,012
[mattie]: it. It just gives purpose to the pain, and that's all I ever wanted, And
656
00:38:32,132 --> 00:38:36,932
[mattie]: God does that with all of our pain if we let him and it will look different, Um for
657
00:38:37,092 --> 00:38:40,932
[mattie]: every person, but he doesn't waste it if if we bring it to him.
658
00:38:42,020 --> 00:38:43,020
[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah,
659
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,120
[rebecca_george]: so good. So good. Well, there's a question that I love asking all of our
660
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,360
[rebecca_george]: guests. So the show is called Radical radiance, which really the heart
661
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,920
[rebecca_george]: behind it is creating resources and conversations that allow women to see
662
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,600
[rebecca_george]: more of what it looks like to radiate the heart of Jesus, and in our life,
663
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:05,280
[rebecca_george]: work our loss, our marriage, our relationships, and God kept bringing me
664
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,600
[rebecca_george]: back to this vers in Solem, thirty fors five, and it says those who look to
665
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,600
[rebecca_george]: him are radiant in their faces are never covered in shame. And I love this
666
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,320
[rebecca_george]: thought that when we're in the presence of God, when we're spending time
667
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,760
[rebecca_george]: with him, raiance, what happens in us right as we do that it's not what
668
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:26,000
[rebecca_george]: we're striving for. its. it's the product of of spending time with him. And
669
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:31,280
[rebecca_george]: so the question I love asking is Mattie. What about Jesus makes you radiant?
670
00:39:33,632 --> 00:39:34,632
[mattie]: Oh, man, um,
671
00:39:35,712 --> 00:39:36,712
[mattie]: I think
672
00:39:37,952 --> 00:39:38,952
[mattie]: it's his
673
00:39:40,452 --> 00:39:44,692
[mattie]: tenderness toward us, which maybe seems like a counter intuitive answer. but I think
674
00:39:44,852 --> 00:39:51,652
[mattie]: a lot of like, a lot of what makes him glorious and makes him radiant is that he
675
00:39:52,932 --> 00:39:57,572
[mattie]: will get down in the very worst of it with us, and just like hold our hand. And
676
00:39:58,052 --> 00:40:00,292
[mattie]: that's what I have learned about
677
00:40:01,572 --> 00:40:05,252
[mattie]: the Lord in this grieving season that I didn't know before.
678
00:40:04,980 --> 00:40:05,980
[rebecca_george]: Mhm,
679
00:40:05,492 --> 00:40:10,052
[mattie]: Like we know he's powerful. We know he's on the throne. We know that he conquers sin
680
00:40:10,292 --> 00:40:15,252
[mattie]: and death, but we also need to know that on our very worst day he literally just
681
00:40:15,412 --> 00:40:18,212
[mattie]: wants to hold us, and I think that that
682
00:40:19,592 --> 00:40:20,592
[mattie]: is ▁ultimately.
683
00:40:21,572 --> 00:40:27,812
[mattie]: where my joy comes from now is that he's there. he's with me. He has what I need. I
684
00:40:27,892 --> 00:40:32,772
[mattie]: will never be stuck in the worst day and the worst day will never be the end of my
685
00:40:32,852 --> 00:40:39,572
[mattie]: story. And somehow that just gives me this ridiculous hope that you know that he
686
00:40:39,732 --> 00:40:43,972
[mattie]: promises to make all bad things untrue Is not actually what revelation says. Perf,
687
00:40:44,452 --> 00:40:49,012
[mattie]: um, but yeah it. I. I think it's his tenderness and his like daily presence with us
688
00:40:49,332 --> 00:40:53,812
[mattie]: that I didn't know that I needed in such a desperate way until I needed it in such a
689
00:40:53,892 --> 00:40:55,972
[mattie]: desperate way, And now it's a part
690
00:40:55,540 --> 00:40:56,540
[rebecca_george]: yeah, yeah, yeah,
691
00:40:56,132 --> 00:41:01,892
[mattie]: of my life every day and that just being close to him makes you radiant. It's like
692
00:41:01,972 --> 00:41:05,652
[mattie]: light in a mirror, so if you learn to keep him close in those small tender things,
693
00:41:05,972 --> 00:41:09,892
[mattie]: then I think his joy just has no choice but to pour out.
694
00:41:10,820 --> 00:41:11,820
[rebecca_george]: yeah,
695
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:17,760
[rebecca_george]: that's beautiful, Mae. I have loved spending time with you. I am so grateful
696
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,120
[rebecca_george]: for your words and this book. I'm going to say the name of the title one
697
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,640
[rebecca_george]: more time. It's called Lemons on Friday. trusting God through my greatest
698
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,080
[rebecca_george]: heartbreak. I want you to share with everybody. Where can they find you?
699
00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:30,000
[rebecca_george]: Where can they grab the Bu. All those things
700
00:41:30,772 --> 00:41:36,292
[mattie]: Yeah, so the book is everywhere you know. books orault Um, you can find me mostly on
701
00:41:36,372 --> 00:41:42,052
[mattie]: intagram. It's M ▁j Selectman, my last name. Um. And then if you want to follow,
702
00:41:42,452 --> 00:41:47,092
[mattie]: Actually, my organization that I run, that Um serves orphans, widows and traffic
703
00:41:47,412 --> 00:41:51,092
[mattie]: victims. That's Nashhville. It's just Nashville, with the like she in the middle,
704
00:41:51,332 --> 00:41:55,492
[mattie]: and that's really active on Instigram, too. So those are my. Those are my places
705
00:41:55,632 --> 00:41:56,632
[mattie]: that I hang out.
706
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,920
[rebecca_george]: Awesome, good deal again and I amm, just so grateful for you. I can't wait
707
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,040
[rebecca_george]: for her people to listen to this and also grab a copy of the books. So thank
708
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:06,560
[rebecca_george]: you so much for me in my guess today.
709
00:42:07,012 --> 00:42:09,892
[mattie]: Thank you for having me.
