BEST OF Episode: From Lost to Found with Nicole Zasowski

Unedited Transcript

Okay, Nicole, I am super excited to have you on the show today to talk about your new book from lost, to found, giving up what you think you want for what will set you free. And so excited about this message. So I'd love for you to just jump off and start by telling us a little bit about your story and kind of what led to the book.

Absolutely. And first of all, thanks for having me. Um, I'm excited to be here with you. Um, the story really kicked off about it. I would say 10 years ago, um, I was living a life that I didn't know, could be largely characterized by comfort and my own control. I was very much, um, unknowingly living this narrative that if I can just work harder.

I can make the life that I want happen for myself. Um, I had a strong relationship with Christ my whole life. Um, but I didn't realize that I was adding things to him. And those extra things were what really held my value and sense of security. And it wasn't until I confronted my own painful season. You know, I was a marriage and family therapist, very still am, but very passionate about helping others find peace and joy outside of circumstance.

But I had no idea that I was living outside of that. Um, personally. And so it wasn't until I confronted my own season of pain and loss, um, that I realized for myself what I knew to be true for my clients. And certainly in that season, which. Arguably, I could still be in, but it's about nine years of just a lot of pain, a lot of loss, a lot of change, a lot of transition and all the feelings that come with that.

Um, I lost tangible things, but in what I now recognize to be God's graciousness to me, I also love. All of those props to my faith and the false securities, um, that had promised way more than they could deliver. And I was left with empty hands to receive what God had been longing to give all of us. Yeah.

Yeah. One thing that I love seeing and your writing and just hearing you speak is just the term emotional freedom that God's really gifted to you and helping people kind of define and find that for themselves. So would you. Care to define kind of what that means to you and steps. Maybe, maybe some practical examples of how you've gotten there or how you help others kind of step into that.

Absolutely. Um, for me, and I say it can look a lot of different ways, but when I think of emotional freedom, I think of knowing my significance. And knowing my security outside of my circumstances. And so I used to see a peace and joy, always on the far side of a dream realized or a goal achieved. Um, you know, that hard work earning me the life that I had built with my own two hands.

Um, and now I recognize emotional freedom to be peace and joy as something that I can choose. I can choose hope life may not. Feel happy, but I can have joy life may not feel calm, but we can have peace. Um, and really recognize. I think the biggest in terms of a practical step is, um, being able to honor our feelings and recognize that they are real.

Like we can't eradicate. Painful feelings from our lives. The human experiences is still like to be human, is to feel those things, whether that's inadequate or unsafe or powerless, whatever those buttons are for you. Um, but there is a difference between feelings being real and feelings being true. So I can honor that feeling and say, yes, that is how I feel.

I might have very good reasons for feeling that way. Um, but instead of reacting to that, I am going to speak truth into it. I'm going to claim what I know to be true. And I often have people kind of. Uh, buck me on that, like, oh, but I don't feel it. The feelings feel more true. And this is where I challenged myself and others that I work with to say, we have to claim what we know to be true and act on that because we can.

Think and act our way to a new feeling. We can not feel our way to a new way of thinking acting. And so this is, it's a discipline and it's a discipline for me. I'm very much speaking from the mud pit on this one. Um, but here's what I know to be true, even though this feeling is so strong. And so instead of doing what I always do, performing and pleasing my way out of that feeling, I'm gonna, I'm gonna relax.

I'm going to connect. Um, vulnerably with other people, um, or whatever that opposite healthy action is for you. Um, so that's one practical step that's really helped me is, is recognizing the difference between feelings being real and true. Yeah. I had somebody share with me a similar statement a few years ago, and it's always stuck with me.

It was one of my best friends and she said, what I'm learning is my feelings. Are real, but they're not reliable. So in those times it's like, I can't, I can't rely on the parts of me that aren't yet sanctified or, you know, or leaning into yeah. Two negative thought patterns or toxic thoughts and those kinds of things, but I can stand on and rely on God's word and sometimes, well, all the time that should be.

Our default. Right. That's huge. I love that. Yeah, I do too. And so kind of when you open, you talked a little bit about, you know, the years you've lived outside of this, right. And so there were some things that you really held onto like shame, performance controls. Some of these things, you know, you touched on a little bit in order to feel valued and safe.

And so could you tell us a little bit about that experience and how that season. Led you eventually to find this freedom. Yeah. So, um, we all have, you know, whether we call them. Coping behaviors or defenses or reactions or even idols. Um, but these things that these behaviors we rely on to protect ourselves from that pain that feels so excruciating and our stories will largely shape what that pain is for us.

So we all have. Three or four feelings. I would say that we, every time we're in a painful situation, we probably feel those same three or four feelings about 90% of the time. Um, they're not, you're not feeling, you know, hundreds and hundreds of feelings. Most of us have stories that have kind of shaped those wounds.

And so for me, shaming myself and then trying to perform and please, and perfect my way out of it. So that I could prove myself worthy was, um, my favorite tricks were my favorite tricks, uh, to protect myself from that pain. And. Of course, that just leads right back to the very feelings we're trying to avoid in the first place.

There's no freedom in that. Um, I describe it is, you know, this kind of shield that maybe was necessary when you were young or, you know, something you use to survive that pain early on. But now that shield is becoming a barrier to meaning and connection as we get older, um, it's not protecting us from anything it's actually getting in the way.

Of emotional freedom. Um, and so there's four main ways that people protect themselves from pain or react to their pain. Uh, one is blaming other people getting really angry, raging. Um, another is shaming themselves. Uh, I call it, ER, the poster child of shaming that kind of, you know, pouting and can't take it anything good about ourselves in, um, the third is control, um, which looks like exactly how you would think it would look like, but also our culture.

Really celebrates a lot of those controlling behaviors, you know, hyper-organized or, you know, in charge very much performance oriented. That's why I flew under the radar for so long as a lot of these things in my life were actually praised and celebrated. Um, and then the fourth one is escape and we do that in all sorts of ways.

We can numb out. Drinking and drugging or Netflix or physically leaving, um, sleeping, you know, whatever kind of takes us out for, you know, at that temporary numbing. Um, and so most of us do 1, 2, 3, or all four of those. Yeah. And one of the things that you talk about in the book, as well as naming what we fear the most.

And so I'd be curious, why is this one of the things that you really wanted your reader to kind of think through and process and how have you seen the power of this in your own life? Yeah, I, um, one of the reasons that's an important question for me is when we know what we fear losing most, it's a good, it's a good pathway to understanding our wounds.

Um, and the, those feelings that we try so hard to protect ourselves from, or those feelings that are particularly sensitive, um, in our life. And so there it's. From a spiritual perspective, a good indicator of where some of our idols might be, um, which are very related to our feelings. Um, also, and the reason there's so much freedom in answering that question, even though it might be hard to look yeah.

Um, like I don't, I don't like that. I struggle with feeling good enough. I don't like that. I struggle with my value being attached to external accomplishments or, or feedback from other people. Um, but we cannot change what we will not name. And so there's freedom and looking at it and speaking it and naming it so that we can do something about it.

Um, Yeah, I think of that verse in Ephesians, you know, taking off the old and putting on the new, well, we can't, can't take off the old, if we don't know what it is that we're taking off. Um, and so I kind of named that as the first step in this journey to understanding, you know, your own version of the story that I go first telling in, in my book from last year, Yeah.

Yeah. And I think, you know, back to that whole analogy, we can't put on the new until we're willing to take off the old, right? Like I'm thinking of moments when I've went on a trip and it's like, you can't fit all your clothes in your suitcase, so you wear as much as you can on the plane. But yeah, you're so uncomfortable because you're trying to wear, you know, your coat over your sweater and all these layers that you need.

Um, or, or you think you need on your trip? I'm taking this analogy really far, but, uh, but it's uncomfortable because we've not stopped long enough to take off the old. And I think you and I really have been cut from the same cloth, just in terms of things that we struggle with. I would say in the last couple of years, God's really surfaced a lot of things for me that I've in my single life.

I didn't get married till I was almost 27. You know, I largely just maybe didn't deal with, in terms of people pleasing and feeling not enough and, and things like that. And man, nothing will reveal. That in you like marriage and somebody walking with the point out, like, huh? Why do you feel that way? You know?

And so, um, I think that's one of the reasons I've so enjoyed hearing you speak and share your message is because I relate to so much of it. And so I'd love to talk about reactive behaviors for a minute. It's another thing that you talk about in the book. So would you. Kind of define this term for us. And then tell us a little bit about how these behaviors often fail.

Yeah. So, um, those are those blame shame control, escape behaviors. Um, and often in our culture, we might call them defense mechanisms or reactions. Um, In a, in a weird way that that's where they could be considered idols. Um, and you know, anything we do as sort of our knee-jerk protection, um, because we've been triggered in either a feeling about our identity or a feeling about our safety pain comes from those two directions.

Um, and so when. When our identity is threatened or our sense of safety is threatened. We all do. We all have a tendency to do something, um, in that place. And so, um, often those are. They're easy to see. That's kind of the above the water line on the iceberg. And so it's often easier to identify those than it is the feeling cause our brain is hardwired.

When that feeling gets ignited to go straight to that reaction. Um, or defense behavior. So, um, it's, it's automatic. It's not something we think through and contemplate. It's, it's, uh, a neural pathway in your brain. It's practiced. Um, and. Again, there maybe at one point in childhood, without knowing every listener story, there may have been very good reasons that you needed to do what you needed to do, um, to protect yourself.

But I think we have a responsibility as we grow into adulthood. Um, About whether or not we want to keep doing that. And, um, sometimes we can get into this place of destructive entitlement where I feel this pain, therefore I can lash out or I can, you know, it, it entitles me to react in this way. And I would just challenge that in myself and other people.

Let's say no, we're still responsible for speaking truth to that pain so that we can do something different. That's healthier in our relationship with ourselves and healthier in our relationship with God and other people. Um, and so none of them work. Um, we, none of 'em, um, grant us that peace and joy and satisfaction that maybe.

You know, they promise they will. I think I'm thinking of my own with performance and perfectionism, like, oh, if I can just get this person's approval or if I can just have this talk I'm giving or this podcast I'm on go really, really well, then I can feel good about myself. Yeah. Well, it doesn't matter how well I did either.

I feel really good about it. And I'm always afraid of slipping off that pedestal. So I have to perform to stay on it, or I find something to shame myself about. And then I keep performing my way out of it. It did not grant peace and joy. Um, even though I often still I'm working on it, but I often still believe the lie that it will, um, So, and whatever your version is, the same will be true for you.

Um, they, they promise way more than they can deliver. Um, they, they will fail. Yeah. How has this journey? This is your first book, right? Yeah. That's my first grade book. Yeah. How has the journey of releasing a book into the world? What has that brought about any, like in this whole sphere that we're talking about?

Like, what have you had to do battle with there? Like what's God taught you that you feel comfortable sharing. Oh, absolutely. I'll share anything. That is just such a big question. Um, because I joke all the time that he had me write this book and then gave me the opportunity to practice everything I wrote.

And, um, you know, I think about control with it released. At the end of January, 2020, you know, right before COVID really kicked off. And, um, my launch season has looked very different than what I plan. Um, and I'm finally to the place where I. I'll be really honest with you. I'm more, open-handed about, you know, I'll never know what God did with that.

Maybe, you know, the message happens to be very appropriate for, you know, losing what you think you want losing control, you know, and, um, invites. To see the invitation and the cancellation and see the redemption, um, and what feels like it's been ruined. Um, and so he's just given me an opportunity in a really gracious kind way to say, okay.

Do you still believe that. You know, pain, we don't prefer, uh, brings transformation that you wouldn't trade. And do you still believe that transformation? My, my grace just transformation is the prize. Um, and not your own performance. Do, do you still believe that, um, Our hope is in not the gift, but the giver of all gifts, not the gift itself, but, but, um, him is the giver and yes I do.

Um, and so I have to look at my book and say, God, thank you for giving me the chance to write it and do with it. What you have planned. It's so much better. Than what I've got planned. And I may never know this side of heaven, what he does with it. Um, but I can tell you every time I get a message from a reader, like I read that, that chapter at the perfect time, or, you know, um, I I've had a lot of miscarriages and in my journey and the books, not solely about that, but I do talk about it and you know, I've had so many readers tell me, I cannot believe I read that chapter.

Right the day after I had a miscarriage, um, and it brought so much hope and peace. And so he's been so kind and gracious to give me so many glimpses from readers of what the book is doing and hearts and minds. Um, but yes, I have had to practice, uh, my identity not being in the performance of the book or my performance.

Yeah. I love that God's given you those that's so redemptive in a time that it's just, it looks so different. Like we talked about before we hit record, I think our expectations and our, our normal of just, you know, being a planner. And there's just so many things that have been disrupted by what's going on in the world, but in its place, I think.

It's given us the opportunity to get back to the root of our, our preferences and, and the way that we're often wired and how comfortable our lives typically are, and really lean on God to, um, just transform our thinking and some of, some of those things. And I mean, even for us as a family, my husband's a pastor.

And so even the way we do church right now looks very different. Our home lives. None of us have ever had this much time with our families. Right. And so, you know, there's just so much about life that looks different, but, but, but just because it's different, um, doesn't mean that it's not beautiful and redemptive and hope filled.

So before we move on, what other encouragement would you want to give people and, or leave people with from the book? Yeah, I think, um, I think it would follow up on what we were just talking about. You know, 2020 has been a hard year. I had a friend describe it really well, that we've all weathered the same storm into different boats, you know?

And affected people differently, certainly. Um, but we've all weathered the same storm and I think it's been challenging and, and not what we expected at the very least. And so, um, I would just encourage people to, yes, absolutely. Let's acknowledge. What's been lost. So painful. Um, I'm not about putting a silver lining on a cloud at all.

Um, but I also believe that God doesn't waste those things and that there is an invitation in what's been canceled. And what feels really broken can break us open to a new truth in a new way, his way. Um, That actually brings peace and joy and I can't help, but get a little excited. Not that I'm, I'm calling the pain.

Good. Um, but I know he's going to work it for good, and he's happy to do that in all of our hearts. And again, with pain, we don't prefer, you know, on the far side of pain, we don't prefer, we find transformation that we would not trade and. I used to kind of look at that as like a constellation price, like sure.

I still really want my, my way. Okay. I guess I can have this, all this goodness that's going on in my heart and transformation, but you know, these are not constellation prizes. These are precious lessons that only can get realized in the context of pain. And I love the way Paul puts it. You know, when he talks about the thorn in his flesh, like he's very honest that I prayed three times for this to be removed, you know, and, and many of us have prayed more times than that.

And, and God didn't do it, but you know what, it's the thing that keeps us tethered to the hope of Christ. Um, and I know that the, my story, the story on the pages of, from loss to found. And in a story that continues. It's the thing that keeps me tethered to the hope of Christ. Um, and for that, I am grateful because I don't want to be.

I don't want to be without the hope of Christ. I don't want to be outside of that awareness. And so that's available to all of them. Yeah. I love it. Well, I am so excited for, for listeners to get their hands on the book. It's so good. And I'm just, like I said, multiple times, I've just loved hearing your message.

I've listened to this other, several other interviews that you've done, and it's just been cool to kind of get to know you and. There is one last question that I ask every guest that comes on the show. It's my favorite. And that is because everybody's answer is so different. And that is what is the best piece of advice that you think you've ever been.

Uh, I've, I've been given so much grace gracious wisdom from people wiser than I, um, what comes to mind right away is I was in a particularly dark season. Um, and it was right around the time it was advent and it was the week that the hope candle gets lit. And I was talking with my mentor, who I mentioned several times in the book and.

He said, you know what hope he was reflecting with his wife on hope. And they were saying that hope only gets deployed in times of struggle. And honestly, friend, I am not going to tell you that I'm thankful for the struggle. I, I have a story that I'm not sure I would be brave enough to choose if I was given the choice.

Um, but I am really thankful to be a woman who knows. Um, and. Again, I would just encourage the listener who is walking through their own season of heartache or their own prayer that they're not sure is ever going to get answered the way that they want. Um, that hope only gets deployed in those situations.

And you are. You are a person who knows hope. Um, so I have hung. I have clung to that. Um, I don't know if that's technically advice, but it's, it's been good for me. Yeah. I love that. That's so good. Okay. Nicole, tell listeners where they can keep in touch with you. Get your book all the time. Yes. I love hearing from listeners and readers.

So, um, definitely reach out. My website is Nicole and I C O L E a zesty Z a S O w S K i.com. And I'm just at Nicole. on Instagram and I love connecting with people there you can. Yeah. By the book wherever you love to buy books, certainly Amazon. You know, your local bookstore can order it for you if they don't have it, Barnes and noble, it's there wherever you like to buy books is great.

Perfect. Well, Nicole, thank you so much for being my guest today. Thanks for having me. This was so great.