Episode 136. Show Up When You Want To Shut Down with Lisa Whittle

Unedited Transcript

Lisa. I am so thrilled to have you back today. Thank you so much for being here. I am glad to be back too. So fun. It's I want people to hear this on the air I told you before we started, but I just am so grateful for the work that you and Allie Worthington have been doing over at called creatives. And it's, it's fun to get, to have a conversation with you on the other side of signing a book deal, which feels so fun and congrats.

It's one of those things like I want you and Allie both to know, um, you've had a marked impact on that. Like God has used you in. In different ways, because you all are so different, which I love that you guys collaborate together because you couldn't be more different, but what you bring to the table for writers and speakers is just such a gift.

And it's been such a gift to me and my ministry. Um, and I know that I know that this is fruit of what you guys are doing. So I want you to hear that. And I want my people to hear that because, um, you're one of the people that spoken into my life. So I'm grateful for that. Thank you. Thank you. Gosh. So fun.

Well, I feel like I just blinked since last time together, we talked when Jesus over everything released and we, we just got to chat a little bit about goodness. These releases came just back to back and I can't think of a better message to follow up Jesus over everything. Then this book that you have releasing now called the hard.

Good and, uh, Man. I just could not wait to get my hands on it because you know what I don't expect you to remember. And my listeners will know is I'm a pastor's wife. I've been married about two years and I will just, I just want to say Lisa, like your words and your style. I've always related to me over the last couple of years, especially since I married a pastor and I've walked into a different season of ministry and with your upbringing and just your perspective, I'm just grateful for it.

So there were so many spaces in this book that just. Just really meant a lot to me. So was thinking I'm so excited to talk about them today. And I know that this goodness, this couldn't have been an easy book to write. No, I don't know how to write easy books. Honestly. It's a little bit of a curse. Um, and I certainly do remember that your pastor's wife, I, uh, Yeah, it was a hard book to write.

It was, this probably was. I, I think I say this other times too, so don't ignore what I'm getting ready to say, but I think this was the hardest book I've ever written. Um, but I will, I will probably stand by that statement maybe always, because it was definitely hardest in the sense that I, I pulled out my.

Deepest most Tinder stories that I, I don't know if I even thought, oh, I'm going to share that story one day. In fact, I know, I didn't think that about several in particular that are flying through my mind right now, but, um, you know, my philosophy always in sharing stories is. They have to serve a bigger purpose than just, oh, this would, you know, insert story here that would work.

They have to have a bigger purpose or I'm so private that I have no need to tell anybody anything really. And so it really has to ha it really has to serve the reader. Um, and, and more it has to serve the body of Christ in the kingdom of God. I pulled out some stories here that I didn't ever really intend to, to share, and we're really Tinder.

So it was a very hard book for me to write. There were many tears, um, when I wrote this book more than ever, but it's not a memoir. It's also very true to my teaching styles. So if you've ever read any of my books, you know, it's, we're, we're going to be very practical because I am a pragmatist. So I, I approach my faith practically.

That's why I am so sure about Jesus, because I look at it from a practical angle. I look at him from a practical angle and that's why I believe in him so much. Yeah. Yeah. I think another reason I've told you this before, but I think another reason I love you so much is you teach just like my husband.

He's also an eight. And so I just. I can understand your style so easily because I spend 24 7 with somebody very similar to you. And so I love that. Uh, yeah, so I loved, I loved it so much and you know, one of the things I love, we're going to get into the book next. This is an aside, but I appreciate about you that you don't just flip it.

Share. And that's one of the things that I think you lead us in so well, and you've even challenged me in, as you kind of reached behind you and pull us along who are walking into ministry kind of in the next generation. Um, because I probably have the opposite personality of like, I'm just an open book I'll share with her.

I want to have wisdom in that. Like, I want that to be led by the holy spirit and I want that to be, um, Right. And good. When I share parts of my life in the books that I write one day. And so, um, You know, as I read, I, I knew and I could trust, like she spent some time with God seeking, like what he truly wants her to share in this book.

And I knew that that was the case. And so I'm grateful for that. Um, so you kind of opened the book and I loved it. And with a section called why I hope you read this book, which I think is great. And you mentioned that you prayed for many years, that God would develop these different characteristics and fruits of the spirit and you things like humility, love, kindness.

And through these prayers, God often led you down a path of difficulty as he sometimes does. And you call it on the ground training to transformation, which I think is like the best definition for sanctification that I've ever heard. Yeah. You know, before we get deep into the book, I'd love for you to just kind of set the tone for listeners of, you know, what do you mean by the hard, good.

Yeah, yeah. You know, for me, um, it really has come from that place of like, I, I want to be a better person. I want to be a better Lisa. I don't want to be so reactionary. I don't want to be, um, I want to be better than that. Then the person I'm currently being and there just has been this frustration of, um, you know, I, I believe I have it in me because you created me and I know that you can do anything.

I can't, that you can. And so how do I get there? Because I want to believe I can just read a book on it, but I've read books on human. Yeah. And I don't tend to be more humble. Um, no, no offense to the book. They had great principles in them, but I just know that I'm a tough case. So for me a book doesn't the, on a subject like that, doesn't usually help me.

So what do I need to do? And, um, The hard, good became very clear to me that there's a process that there's a process through these, through life of these highest character building. Um, you know, ultimately. Spiritual development, things that happen. And we can kind of go one of two ways. It's we can either become overwhelmed and overcome by these hard things in our life.

And it's not just hard things that happen to us. That certainly is a part of life, but also hard things within. Ourself that need to be worked out feelings of jealousy, um, you know, hard situations where we want to listen to other people, but God is drawing us to do something else. And so there's, there's this conflict, this inner conflict.

So it's just, it's hard things that happen either to us in our life or within us. And we can go one of two ways. We can either become overwhelmed by it and say, my life is so hard. I just don't know what to do and spend our life just spinning our wheels, talking about how life is so hard or. We can say, what is, what can God do with this?

And through this thing that maybe I never wanted this thing that I would wish away, whatever the case may be. And I don't know. I, again, I'm such a pragmatist that I'm thinking to myself, if hard things in life are going to come, and I know they are based on scripture, that's a scriptural promise then. I would prefer to have the matter in some way.

I just, I cannot possibly think of going through my life without these hard things, producing something. They just can't be for not. And, um, and God should be. Literally in scripture. And that's how the whole book came about as I was studying the words studying for Samuel nine, which is what the whole hard, good Bible study is all about.

And I was studying king Saul, a picture of what looks like when you don't allow God to use the hard things in your life to shape you. And I thought, I don't want to be. I don't want that to be me. And that's really what the book ha what had happened. Yeah. Yeah. You know, as I read chapter one, I really kind of found myself lost in a story that I think we can all relate to the chapters called accepting something you wish were something different.

And I just pulled a statement that I think, I think as we can all relate to you say, I'm happy that they're happy, but I'm not happy that everyone's okay. Seem to be fair and better than my own. And I think we've all sat in a moment like that at some point in our lives. And you share that often we have this mindset that maybe if we just reject a hard thing or we, you know, deny it, you know, long enough, somehow in our minds, we prevent them from becoming true, even though that's not the case.

So how do we begin to take those steps forward towards acceptance? Well, I think we have to understand the difference between preference and acceptance, because I think a lot of us are thinking to ourselves, well, I didn't prefer this. I didn't want this. So in order for me to accept it, I am somehow conceding that.

It was something that I preferred or that I even think it's okay, or that I'm endorsing it in some way. And so I think we have to begin to realize that acceptance is really all about the choice for freedom in our life. And it is ushering in sort of this precious practicality, uh, of saying. I I'm no longer going to buy into this false belief.

That I can control something, especially something that's already happened. Something that's already happened. And if I reject it, what I ended up doing is put myself in a position of constant turmoil where I am fighting something that I don't even have. I don't have the spiritual power. I don't have the physical power.

I have no power in which to actually. Redo or undo or cause or whatever the case may be. And so acceptance is really about. Uh, saying, I don't want this thing to take up any more of my life. I'm going to accept that I cannot change it. And of course, I, I talk about the, the, um, serenity prayer in that chapter, because it's so powerful for us to accept the things that we cannot change.

And also the wisdom, uh, to live untroubled, which is very much a scriptural concept. Living on trouble is different than just living. There's sort of like, okay, um, I'll just kind of deal with it. Uh, th th that's a very, that's a, that's a Jesus' idea, not waste a widow or any kind of philosopher's idea. So it's important that we understand what we're really doing here.

When we're accepting something it's really weird choosing freedom. We are not choosing to endorse something that we still don't prefer. And that's really. Yeah, it reminds me of the freedom that comes when we forgive other people. Like the freedom that you're talking about is the freedom that I feel when I am forgiving someone.

So if somebody is trying to imagine, like, what would that feel like to accept something you wish were different? Like, what does it feel like when you apply or when you accept an apology or when you truly forgive somebody. And that just kind of reminds me of that same thing. It's like a weight off my shoulders.

I don't have to carry that anymore, you know? Yeah. And you were talking about you, the reason, you know, you were talking about that story. That's in the beginning, I illustrate that by sharing my own personal story, about a moment when I was pushing back in my heart so much with accepting this new person into my life.

When my beloved father, who was my favorite person on earth, went to heaven. And then I'm, I'm being asked to accept someone new into my life. In that fatherly role. And w did I prefer it? No. Did I ask for it? No. Do I still wish that I had my dad? Yes. But I, I knew that it's setting, it would set my own heart free and I've been a person I can speak so much to this from personal experience, because there's a part of me.

And I think there's a part of so many people that feel like I can somehow control something. I didn't want to have happen still if I just push it back and keep saying, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope. And, uh, you know, I've had emails since this first chapter became something free people could download and they've said, you know what?

I've had such tragedy in my life. And what I didn't realize was the missing piece was accepting, accepting it. And I it's really important. It's so huge. So huge. Well, if that wasn't powerful enough, there's so many other chapters that I just, I remember screenshotting the table of contents a couple of months ago and sending it to a couple of girlfriends and I was like, She is coming in hot.

Like this is, I was so excited to read it after I just looked at the table of contents. One of the other chapters that I could just relate to so much was cheering for someone when they get what we want. And I'm sort of coming out of this season. Like we talked about with pursuing my first book deal and things like that.

And for the last couple of years, I've watched with joy. So many of my friends take that, take that first step. And like, w the wondering if it would ever be my turn and you know, all of that. Yeah. And before that I was getting married and all my friends were getting married. Right. So we're always in those seasons where other people are getting things that we want.

And so you, one of the things that I loved, and I want people to grab the book and read this portion, because it was really helpful to me. You share it. Two different ways of reacting that we typically react. So there's the front end reactor and there's the back end reactor. And when I read the backend reactor portion, I almost giggled because that's, so me, like, I've always challenged myself.

Like say the kind thing, say the joyful thing, like speak up and like cheer loud for your people. And then like we can process it later. Like I'm a, I'm a great compartmentalizer. I'll be whatever you need me to be in the situation. Sure specific to this, that was really helpful to me. And you say he can give someone something beautiful and give you something different.

Beautiful at the same time. Yeah, that's so good. But like for the girl who's listening today and she just planned another bachelorette party or what, like how does she take start taking those steps towards them? Yeah, look, the reason it's in the book is because it's hard. That's that's I mean, that's, I think, and I say this in the chapter, we have to acknowledge this step.

Like the one thing I am not a proponent of is denial. And I feel like. You know, I want the church to disciple better in this way, rather than trying to talk women out of our feelings of jealousy and our feelings in this way, which has been historically a lot of the way that we've dealt with this. It's like, no, you shouldn't feel jealous, but what if you do?

Like, what if you are, you know, what do you do with that? And I think it's, I think when it can be better than that, I think we can. This is a human feeling that comes up because we are flesh. We do sin and this things arise within us. It is very hard when you have labored, you have worked hard. Maybe even you deserve it more than someone else.

If you just look at it on paper, maybe you're a harder worker, or maybe they just kind of got lucky. I mean, these, this part of life, man, I'm not afraid to say that. So I feel that, you know, you might be. You might be the most beautiful candidate for. Marriage and you really want that. And you would be in a fantastic wife and you, and you're thinking to yourself, why am I planning a bachelorette party for someone else?

And I want to be married and I would be a fantastic way. Listen, I don't, I don't come with an answer for that because I don't have an answer for that. I don't know everybody's circumstances. What I know. Feeling of watching other people get what you want. And I know that it's hard and I knew it needed to be included.

What I can tell you is that the remedy for myself, that I've watched happen in those moments is wild generosity that you choose. And, um, does it feel like death to your soul at the moment? Yes. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it feels like you are literally walking the plank, walking the plank into this water, and you're like, here I go.

I'm choosing to walk the blank, but let me tell you though, what's on the other side of that is. Setting yourself free. Again, it is one of those things where, um, and it gets better. It also makes your heart feel, uh, unburdened in a way that as you fight against. Whatever's happening that you can't control anyway.

I mean, someone is going to get chosen for something else anyway. And what are you going to do about it? You're going to pick it. You got to, you know, send a letter. You gotta, you know, what happens is we become bitter. We feel entitled. We all know this feeling because it's happened to all of us. We, we then.

Art become less free ourselves to create. We, we become a more sullen person. We become less attractive and I don't even, I don't mean physically attractive, but I think it shows on our face. So we are, people are less attracted to us because we don't have that joy. And so is it easy? No, but will I, what I will say, and I share in the book a story of a time where someone.

I was, I was jealous of her because of her capabilities in a moment where I, I had to follow her capabilities and I thought I'm not going to be as good as her. I'm just not going to be, but the Lord prompted me to do something wildly generous. I didn't want to do it because I didn't want her to be any better than what she was already going to be.

And. It changed me. It changed me profoundly. And I realized at that moment, oh, this is what I have to do. I have to take the beast on the minute it starts to overtake me. And I think that's one thing that we don't realize about our feelings. We think, well, I'm just a victim here. They're just going to overwhelm me.

I'm just doomed to my jealousy. And, um, it's not true. It's not true. We have the power of God within us to be able to take those things on and we're gonna have to choose to do it at first. Cause it won't come natural. Yeah. And I honestly can't think of a time where I put my, my pride or my jealousy aside and I truly acted out of generosity and joy for the other person.

And that didn't change me. I can't think of it. That's not true. Right, right. Right. Then, you know, I've, I think I've shared this story before on the podcast, but, so I moved from a city that I have known and loved for my whole life Knoxville, Tennessee, when I'm married and moved down to a town of 12,000 people in the S in south Mississippi, when we got married and became a pastor's wife and all the things.

Yeah. On paper. I got everything I was looking for. Right? Like I got married. I was in this new season of ministry, all the things. And about a year after I moved there, he had her, I went back to visit my family, which I do often, but I was, I happened to be by myself, in my car, driving through my old neighborhood where I used to live when I was single and I lived alone and I was meeting a friend for dinner and it was the first time Lisa that I.

Had been alone in what used to be my old home. And so I just remember stopping at this point on the Tennessee river, I used to run there all the time. I did life there and I just wept over like all God did. And that season that I totally missed. Yeah. When yeah. I when I was a bridesmaid and nine different weddings and I was so annoyed because everybody was having their turn and all the things.

Yeah. How was discipling girls in and out of my front door all day long that went to the university of Tennessee. I had the sweetest season of ministry there, and I'm so thankful for what God did there, but like how much of it did I miss? Because I had the eyes on it, you know, what I was looking for or whatever.

And so, yeah, this was in agreement with God in that moment of like, I don't want that to happen again because there's going to be another thing, right? Like now my people are having babies and you, you go, you just go into that next season of. Of longing, right? Like, okay, well, and we talk about, I, you know, I talk about it in the book, like, you know, you, we really won't ever be okay if we are not okay without the, whatever it is that we think that we have to have.

And I, again, The reason why it's in the hard good is because it is hard. Like, I, I need to say that over and over again, because I'm not tying a pretty bow around this. I'm not saying that it's not going to be that it's, that it will be easy. But what I am saying is yes, You want to become, and you want to live this life with the perspective that is different, because I think one thing that a lot of us are tired of is just making it, um, just getting by, waking up in the morning and feeling like I don't feel any better than the day before I I'm not making any progress.

I feel like I'm still sort of stuck in these cycles. Right. In the, or, um, you know, whatever the case may be in our life. And I think there are a lot of us that are tired of that. We're like, I, I really want, if I, if I'm going to be living here, I don't just want to be existing. It's it's just too hard to just exist.

And so, um, you know, I want to get better and this is the road to getting better. And that, that matters. Yeah. And matter so much. And, okay, so there's a whole chapter about, about like the people pleaser in us, right? Like, so doing something that God wants, even when it disappoints others, man, this was a chapter that really spoke to me as a pastor's wife, because that's a choice that my husband and I have to make all the time.

Yeah. Yeah. It was it specifically to me too. Like if you think about what is. Is normative, we'll say for a Southern Baptist pastor's wife in south Mississippi. I am done. Right. And so I am always having to bounce back with like, okay, God, how do you want me to spend my time? What's that supposed to look like?

What does that look like in a season where I'm walking beside my husband, but I'm also writing my first book and doing all these things. And so this one really spoke to me and there's a statement you make other people often get blamed for asking us to do too much. But we are the only ones who know where the asks are in conflict with God's leading so good.

They can't possibly know. Right. And so therefore our schedule is ultimately our responsibility. Yeah, it is. But we get stuck so often in the people pleaser mentality. And so for somebody listening, like, I don't know, this may be easier for you Lisa than it is for me, but I struggle here. Like actually I struggled to not care what other people think.

I struggle, um, with that piece. Biblically, how do we, how do we take those steps forward? And again, I think it's making that choice over and over. Like, it might be something I always fight, but how do we get there? Yeah. Well, I think people pleasing is hard for everyone. I think there certainly there's a scale.

So there, you know, some, some folks struggle more than others. Undoubtedly, we all have our different areas of struggle. Right. But I think there's one thing that happens with people pleasing and it's very interesting and it happens over and over again. And that is that people who are notorious with people pleasing.

And they really, really struggle with it. They it's always considered. Uh, on some level, uh, nobility, right? So there is, there is a, there's a piece of people pleasing that feels noble. So it that's, what's confusing to folks. So it's like, well, you know, There's there's service attached to this? Well, God is attached to this.

Well, um, you know, we're supposed to be kind, so kindness is attached to this and it becomes really convoluted. And so we, we just are not completely convinced on some level that people pleasing is not great. Like, we, we, we, we will, we will say it. But then our calendar says something different, but I just can't preach this enough.

People pleasing is not about other people. It's, it's, it's not, it is, it is about us. It really is. It is about our need to be approved of it is about our need in some way to, uh, Uh, you know, feel as though we are doing the work. Um, now I know that's super hard when you've got something in front of you and people very much are, you know, expecting, I have that in air quotes or, you know, you do have a role to play and ministerial roles are the most difficult to sort through because.

I know those expectations. I've lived the pastor, family life. I get it. You know, they, there are, um, there are. Expectations that are put on pastor's families that are unfair. They really are. They are, they are too much. They, um, they are roles that, that you wouldn't ask anyone else to play. Quite honestly, that, uh, result in a lot of burnout.

They result in a lot of, um, they result in depression. They result in, uh, you know, to a degree. Pastor's families, not even really being able to make true friendships. It's there's, there are so many things at play. And so if someone's listening and you have pastors in your life, I just could not encourage you enough to please see those folks as normal.

People, uh, that are in a wonderful role that God has entrusted to them, but they are normal people who need to rest and they don't need phone calls all hours of the day. And all those things don't get me started. I'm preaching, but, um, w it's just a capacity. That's not fair for a human. Um, but what I will say is that, um, you know, the, the people pleasing aspect is.

Very important that we really drill down, uh, why we're doing what we're doing. Uh, what is really happening here and where we really can set important, um, guardrails for everybody concerned. Um, I think a lot of the things live in our head, Rebecca, a lot of the fears live in our head that we have to do this because, and I think.

Part of Satan's plan is that he will exhaust us by the fears that live in our head over our great what ifs, which I talk about in chapter one. And I talk about that in kind of a guilt mode. Like what if this would never would have happened, but I think it's also futuristic. Like, what if I don't do this?

Uh, you know, what, if I am not who they want me to be, and I think you have to stare those down and say, well, uh, What if I just trust God then, and this is, this is what I had the ability to do. This is who I am, you know? And there's something I write in page on page 1 0 1 it's it's, it's a practice of speaking to our soul, which is not a who we will practice.

It's what the Psalmist did. It's what David did. Um, and then I, I gave us a little list. It's just a little practical is it's not, you know, I wouldn't, I don't know if it's holy spirit inspired, but it's just a little practical with that. I give us just to give us a little star that says here's some things to think about to even say to our own soul, like, you know, what's really happening right now.

And what do you know, what are, what are some things that I need to think about? And so maybe that little list on page 1 0 1 will help you really sort through what the weird people pleasing thing is, that's happening in your life right now. But it's very important not to get super overwhelmed by stuff, but to take it case by case.

And say, um, Is this really something that I need to be doing? This is about me. Do I really, am I really just trying to keep all of the balls in the air? Because I think I somehow control things. And am I in my questioning? Is this a stifling? What if then I'm going down a middle road that I don't need to go down.

I just need to trust God for this. Yeah, that's so good. I haven't thought about that in a long time that we just so celebrate that in the south as well. That's a celebrated thing in the church, I think a lot of times. And so I love that you're really speaking. Um, so much truth into that. I will have, you know, this will make you so happy.

I dropped my husband off about three hours ago at the airport and he is going on this compassion trip this week out west to go fly fishing with a bunch of other pastors. Yeah, it was ranch where he will have no cell service for the next five days. And I remember when he came home after the first meeting and we were talking and he told me it was like, I can, they told us, like, we're not going to have cell service.

And I was like, you're kidding. That's the best news I've heard all day. I'm so excited for you. Not that I don't want to talk to you, but like go have fun in the woods and laid that on Friday. That's right. That's right. So excited for him. Um, well I'll close us with kind of. I'd love for you to just share Lisa, like, as you're going through this launch and you have underwent so much hard work to get this message to us, like, what's your biggest hope for readers as they walk away from the book?

Like what's your approach? Hmm. Oh gosh. I mean, I, I think my prayer would be that that people would begin to.

See the good again, that they would be able to see it differently though, that they would, that they would be able to clear away what maybe the mantras of the world are about what good is. And they would begin to see it from a spiritual perspective, um, and really, uh, Lean into what God has even through the last two years, even through their own heart circumstances, but really see good for what it is.

Let it be. I love it. So good. Well, I am so thrilled about this new message for friends who, um, are just kind of tuning in or you didn't catch the title at the beginning. It's called the hard, good. I'm so thrilled for you, Lisa. And I just can't wait to see how this book continues to impact lives as it gets out into the world.

So before we. Well, what we're going to do now is hop on over to our Patrion page and get to know Lisa A. Little bit better, which will be really fun. So if you are a subscribed patron, make sure you listen to our bonus episode with her, but for now, Lisa, I'm so grateful for you. And I just want to thank you for your time today.

Thank you. Bye.