Episode 134. Christ-Centered Conflict with Tony Merida

Unedited Transcript

Tony. I am so grateful to have you today and excited to talk about your book. Thanks for being with me. Yeah, great to be with you. It's so fun to hear and talk to somebody that used to live in Mississippi, which is really fun. Most people have never, in a million years heard the name of the town that we live in.

And so it's really fun to get to connect with a guy who lived down here for a good while. And I am so excited about your new book when it came across my desk. I thought, man, this is just a really great guide to something that most of us would consider to be. A hard topic to navigate and work through. So it's called Christ centered conflict resolution, a guide for turbulent times.

Okay. Here's what I need to know was the subtitle of the book written before or after 2020? Well, the subtitle was written in 2020, but before a lot of the turbulent times. It was originally, I was originally asked to write the book. Uh, and kind of an emergency resource, so they knew I could get around or at least they thought I could quickly.

So the book was written in about a month and then it was published immediately. I've never done a book like that. Um, but the reason was, uh, initially, uh, during the lockdowns. All of the, uh, you know, kids were staying home, going to school and people were just at each other's throats in the home. And so it was written with that in mind.

And then as we all know that as the months unfolded, it was the political climate to conflict, the racial unrest and, uh, all of the debates around mask and gatherings. And so it came a very relevant book, uh, applicable to a number of situations. Yeah, that's so interesting. Cause that's so not a normal path to like what you're saying.

I mean, just for a book to turn around that quickly, I'm so thankful that you wrote it when you did. And that's so awesome, but it's you too. I talked to so many authors as I'm sure you do as well. You hear people's stories and it's been so interesting to hear like what God put on the hearts of people. In 2018 and 2019 of books that are coming out right now.

And they're all so relevant. So it's always loved kind of hearing that path. And this one was like, A red light, like we've we need this resource now, which is really cool. So I want to, when they asked me to ride it, I was like, um, at the time I, we have five kids ages, 16 to 20, and we have a house guest and we have three dogs.

And so, um, would they said, would you write a book on conflict resolution? And I was like, I need a book on conflict resolution. Yeah. I don't know if I need to write one. Um, but it became a great personal, uh, experience for me, uh, in the research and the writing and something I could go home and try to practice.

Yeah. I'm curious, you know, everybody sort of falls somewhere on the spectrum of like, yeah, I can handle conflict pretty well. Or, uh, I'm pretty conflict averse actually hate conflict. So like, where are you on that spectrum?

It really, probably depends on the day and yeah. What I'm doing at the moment, I'm a really scheduled guy like LANs and, um, they call me task mode, Tony. And so it's, it's when I, uh, when those plans are affected that, uh, I can, I can, you know, uh, be ready to get in some faces and have some conflict.

Ordinarily a laid back, uh, chill kind of guy. And I don't like conflict. So I think that's my normal self is I, I don't, uh, conflict. Um, so I think you're right. You have those two spectrum, those two, you know, uh, poles of avoiding it or, uh, being an attacker and I've met both. Uh, I think the majority of people that I know would say, uh, if they have a fault in this area, it's that they don't like it.

They want to avoid it. They want to flee. Um, but there are a few that want to fight. I think what we're trying to, you know, promote in this book is just that healthy middle way of, of working through our conflict in the spirit of Christ, uh, you know, for the good of others in the glory of Christ. And that really is spiritual work.

Uh, it really does take, you know, the, uh, the grace of Jesus, uh, in order for us to do that. But yeah. I think a lot of people are intimidated by the, by conflict or afraid of jumping into something or, or something. Some just don't know how they haven't been taught. I think that's a big thing. That's really not in the book.

But as, as I've had conversations after the book came out, it's people telling me they, they never saw anyone handle conflict well in their life. So because we're so, uh, impacted by example, if we have never seen this worked out, then, you know, we, we really have a long way to go in terms of learning what a healthy, healthy conflict resolution looks like.

Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. And I even wonder, you know, to somebody who feels maybe they would use the word intimidated by conflict, or they would consider themselves conflict averse. Has there been something. In the book that you feel like has been really powerful to that type of person that you would want to share?

Um, I think a couple of things, one is just seeing the importance of. Dealing with, uh, relational conflict. And so what I mean by that is we have, uh, an embodied faith. It's lived out in the context of relationships. And I think some individuals are kind of doctrine heavy, right? And they, they love to study.

They love to read the little footnotes. Uh, they may even love to write, um, but there, but when it comes to relational conflict, that that seems like a lesser aspect of the faith to them. And I think that's problematic. Um, you know, I think if the apostle John were here today, he would probably. Preach what he said in first, John, over and over about loving one another.

And so the person that's intimidated, I would just say, well, um, we, we have areas to grow in, in all aspects of our faith. Uh, for some it is doctrine for some, you know, it is in their service in the local church. Uh, there, there are various aspects of discipleship where we need to grow. I want to just encourage them in this area that, um, if they feel that sense of intimidation, uh that's God's grace to them and showing them they really need to grow in this area.

Um, so you can, you can take that negative vibe and think about it in terms of an opportunity. And that's what I've learned, uh, throughout this, this book, process and conversation with people. Is that conflict really is an opportunity to grow. And so if we want to grow in the Lord, we want to see others grow in the Lord as well.

Then we, we step into that, uh, with faith and with courage and believe that on the other side, God is going to make us more into the image of Jesus. Um, and the other thing I would just encourage them with is that, um, Man, if, if you've been wounded because of conflict and that's why you're averse to it, that, you know, the Lord, uh, Lord Jesus will not break the bruised Reed.

He heals the wounded so that they can flourish again. Uh he's with us in the conflict. Um, and we have those. Conversations that we don't want to have. Um, they're awkward at times they're intimidating at times, but what I've experienced is that the Lord shows up in these meetings, in these conversations, because he's pleased that this kind of work is going on and he takes notice of it so much.

So that even in the beatitudes, it's blessed are the peacemakers for, they shall be called sons of God. Like of all the things that could be said of a person that would reflect the character of God. It's a peacemaker. Uh, and so God is really honored by this work of reconciliation and resolution he's with us in the process of it, and he grows us in it.

And so I think those are some good motivations for, you know, ask them for the Lord's help when we feel the fear and step into it in faith. Yeah, that's so good. And one of the things you mentioned, the term peacemaker, but you talk in the book about just the power of understanding Christ as the ultimate peacemaker.

And I'd love for you to just talk to listeners about how this understanding is crucial. As we handle conflict in a Christ centered way. Yeah. When I'm talking about being a Christ centered, I mean, several things, you know, one is being captivated by Christ personally. Uh, and this is the reason a lot of conflict is not dealt with or not well is because he's really not, you know, first in our hearts when, when he is reigning and ruling and when our affections are for him, we want to follow him even in the aspects of discipleship that aren't comfortable.

Um, And it means that we're compelled by his love, uh, as, as Paul says in second Corinthians, but what you're alluding to is this aspect of rev reflecting the character of Christ in the work of Christ in being reconciler. Um, you know, this is one of the great. Doctrinal themes. Of course in our salvation is that Jesus has reconciled us to God and in, so doing, he has reconciled us to one another as Ephesians two talks about he's broken down the dividing wall of hostility through his death on the cross.

And so one of the big things that was happening as Jesus went to the cross was a work of reconciliation. And we enjoy the great benefits of that. Now, as people who have access to God as Christians and we have unity across. Generations across ethnic lines across backgrounds because Jesus is the great unifier.

He's the one who brings us together. And so, uh, you know, to be a person that's about Christ centered conflict resolution is really about taking on the characteristics of, of Christ. And so just as we would want to emphasize the gentleness of Jesus or, um, the holiness of Jesus and want to imitate that want to reflect that.

So it should be with this work of reconciliation that, um, what Jesus did can never be duplicated. Of course it was a redemptive. Reconciliation act, uh, giving us eternal life. And it was even cosmic as Colossians. One talks about that. He's reconciling all things to himself, but he has commissioned us to be these, these ministers of reconciliation of, of commending.

First of all, the gospel to people who are at odds with God, so that they can know him. Right. But also on a more practical level of being those kinds of peacemakers that are working to ensure that relationships, uh, are not just, uh, you know, tolerated or managed, but they're actually unified because that's the goal, right?

Is that we see harmony. We see people actually working together, not just that people can coexist who are at odds with each other, but that we can be. So, so one with one another, the way we are now with God through Christ that we can work together. We serve together. We love together. Uh, and so I think we just.

I have to always keep Christ as a very basic of course, to all aspects of our discipleship, keep Christ first and foremost, in our minds and our hearts being captivated to him, surrendering to his Lordship. Uh, and if you, if you do that, you know, it Matthew's gospel in the, in the sermon on the Mount. It says a whole lot about this very subject.

I mean, it's just fascinating when you read Matthew. Five through seven, how much Jesus talks about forgiveness, about, you know, interrupting worship to go be reconciled with someone you're at odds with, uh, the, the peacemaker, uh, aspect. I mean, there's so much about relationships in the sermon on the Mount.

In fact, one time when I was preaching on the sermon on the Mount, I had all kinds of counseling as a result because, uh, you just keep touching on these relational issues. Anger and, you know, uh, all of these, uh, loving your enemies. So Jesus has a lot to say, like this really matters to him. Uh, and it shouldn't surprise us because he is indeed the great reconciler.

Yeah. That's so good. So. In the book, you talk about how sometimes the Holy spirit will transform us sort of through this process of working through conflict. I don't think we think about that. Right? Well, we're when we're walking into a hard conversation or we're navigating conflict, we don't think like man, or we don't pray.

God, I just, I just pray through your Holy spirit that you would transform me in this process of conflict. Right. So I want you to unpack pack that for us a little bit. Yeah, I think you're right. Like when I'm in a conflict, I want to go to the beach or. I want to do something else. I want to get in a hot tub though.

Cause there's some form of comfort. Um, well I think it's important just to underscore upfront on this issue that we need the Holy spirit to do this work. That this is not something we by nature. Well, you know, uh, do well. We either don't want to do it, or we do it wrongly. Um, and we, we need his power in order to, to put on display the fruit of the spirit.

I think how it, how it's transformative, uh, how the spirit transforms us in this process is if you just think about the, the fruit of the spirit for a moment of, of love, joy, peace. Patience kindness. Goodness, faithfulness, gentleness. Self-control in a conflict. All of these virtues are challenged. Yeah. Like, and so what happens is, again, it's an opportunity.

So, uh, I don't know if I'm growing in love until I'm in a conflict or at least some aspect, I don't know. Right. Hopefully I am growing in love all the time, but in a conflict it's really tested isn't it? Uh, or, or, or joy or, uh, peace or kindness, especially in these other virtues of, of. Uh, gentleness and self-control, uh, and so the, all of these characteristics, as I see them are character, character signs of, of, uh, traits of Jesus himself, and that the spirit is conforming us into the image of Christ.

And so if that's really our goal, if we really do want to know him, Philippians three, 10, and 11, and be conformed to him, we need to remember that sometimes. We will be tested in various ways in order for us to grow in these virtues. And conflict is one of those fires that we get put through times in order to purify us in all of these ways.

And so the spirit of God is with us and we were thankful for that. And we also trust that he's shaping us more and more in the image of Christ and, and sometimes that's through the pain and difficulty and the awkwardness of, of relational conflict. And so, um, It's not that we necessarily welcome conflict, but it is that we say, we want to know Christ more and we want to be more like him.

And so I trust the father who is sovereign over all things. And if I am in a, in a conflict, I trust that he's working for my good, and he's wanting to make me more like his son and, and one of the ways the spirit does that is. Is by, you know, bringing these, the, these virtues out in my life, hopefully as I deal with things properly.

Um, and the final thing I would say just on, on this particular question, Uh, it's very striking after you read through the, the list of the fruit of the spirit, which obviously by themselves carry kind of relational implications. But immediately after that chapter five comes chapter six, which is all about kind of relationships within the community of faith, Galatians six one that we would restore the broken.

A brother or sister with gentleness, right? Uh, that we would bear one another's burdens. That's very one another, uh, family, community language do good to one another Galatians six, 10 it's it's basically those virtues worked out in the context of biblical community in the context of relationships. And so often people kind of imagine kind of, uh, the life of.

In the spirit, perhaps as being a very, uh, you know, mystical kind of experience with the Lord, um, or great power encounters in which you see miraculous things done. Uh, but it's interesting to me that Paul goes from this very classic text about the fruit of the spirit in our life to relationships, something as earthly as, as, uh, loving one another.

Well, In the context of the church. And so I take that to, to basically mean like, this is what the spirit wants to do in our lives seeding. He wants to bring about that kind of relational harmony, uh, great displays of love and gentleness within the body of Christ. And so, um, again, we don't welcome conflict necessarily, but we do say we want to be more like Christ in the spirit.

Does his work in our lives sometimes in these very moments. Yeah. And it's interesting to think about that as like a way to get good practice at living out the fruits of the spirit. You know, like I just don't think I've ever thought about a hard conversation or a conflict that went through in that way.

And I think that's really powerful. Not that you know, not in a. I don't know and neglectful way of like neglecting the seriousness or the, the weight of conflict, but just truly seeing it as all right. This is hard. This might not be my favorite thing in the world. However, I know, and I trust that God is going to use this to develop the fruits of the spirit in me and to develop me more into the likeness of Christ.

So that's just really powerful. I love that a lot. Okay. So you talk some in the book about just how we can anticipate conflict, which I think is a really interesting thought to kind of unpack a little bit and just how. We can anticipate it and learn how to resolve it in a Christ centered way. We've used this term throughout the conversation.

It's in the title of the book, but how would you want to unpack this a little bit? Yeah. So the anticipation part, I think is important because we should never be surprised that we have, you know, um, when I say that conflict is an opportunity, someone said to me, I have a lot of opportunities that you're aware of the, of this reality.

And I think it's not just experientially that we know we should anticipate them. It's actually a biblical theme. Uh, right. So, uh, Uh, in the garden, there's perfect harmony before the fall. Uh, there is no need for the, for the conflict resolution book to be written. But then in chapter three, one of the results of the fall is the promise that there will be in math-y between man and woman.

Um, and then we see how conflict works itself out in the very next chapter in Genesis four, as a brother kills another brother. Uh, and so you see immediately in the opening pages of scripture, just, uh, The kind of this theology of conflict, if you will. And, but also right in the middle of, of, of these early chapters is the promise in Genesis three 15, that one is going to come to crush the head of the serpent.

And, uh, we're anticipating all through the old Testament drama, that verse kind of cast a shadow over the whole old Testament. Like, who is he? And where is he? And when is he coming? And of course we know that one to, to be, uh, the Lord Jesus, who did that through his, his, uh, His work of crucifixion, his resurrection.

Uh, and we know that this piece that we can have now with him, with God and with one another is an already not yet, uh, piece, right. That in Romans 16, 20, Paul says that the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. Um, and one of the great glories of heaven and the new creation. Will be the fact that there will be total Shalom.

There'll be total peace, total wellbeing, total harmony, the lion and lamb dwelling together, children playing in the streets. All those images that we read in the profits of just peace and flourishing and harmony, the glory of God covering the earth as the waters cover the seas. Now all of that gives us hope eight, right?

It sets us up to say. Um, we should anticipate conflict. It's just part of this fallen world in which we live, but we're not hopeless. We can operate with w with this great degree of hope and in confidence because of Christ, what he's done, what he's doing, and then what he will do. And, and we, as we get to be peacemakers, get to kind of bring the future into the present, so to speak, uh, showing the world where we're going in this great, uh, Plan of salvation.

Right. And so that's how I would set it up in terms of just thinking through it as anticipation. Of of what we should expect. And, but also the hope that we have, if you get down into the more details of, okay, how do I work this out in my life? And the book I have like five hymns, uh, kind of the first is meat.

Okay. So the first thing I do, I, if I'm in a conflict, it's not what I want to do, but it's what I need to do. And that is to do self-examination. Um, as Jesus taught us, Before you look at the speck in your brother's eye, consider the log in your own eye. Um, usually if, if I'm in a conflict with someone, there is something that I could have done at least differently.

I probably did something wrong and may have done something very sinful. So. I think it's very important to, uh, when you are approaching a person, if you're trying to deal with a, an issue you've got with them, or they have with you is to start with this principle of I'm sorry. I could have done this differently.

Um, Ken Sandy, in his classic book, the peacemaker calls this the golden result. Kind of playing off of the golden rule, that if you will first start with confession, it's amazing how that will change the other person and could disarm them and make them at ease and help them after you confess. They, they too usually often hopefully will say, well, I could have done X, Y, or Z as well.

And the conversation really changes, but if you go in without doing self-examination and everything is the other person's fault and. And you're just coming in to tell them all that they've done wrong, then chances are that's not going to go well. And I don't think that's really operating out of the spirit of Christ.

The second name is minor. Uh, so is this offense something that can be overlooked? Is it a minor offense? None of the idea in Proverbs that is the glory of the King to overlook an offense. Uh, an offense that we overlook is something that's not sinful. It's not. Really hurting the reputation of Jesus is not hurting the reputation of the church.

It's not hurting other people. Usually the minor offenses are preferences. They, they may be, uh, you know, yeah. Th th they're the things that we read about in the epistles of bearing with one another in love, like sometimes bearing with it. Isn't because that person is sinful and you're not addressing it.

It's just. You're different. Uh, you have different interests, you have different preferences. I've seen a lot of that in 20 and 21. Now with nobody, everything is major. That's my third MP, but no, there isn't. There is no minor category. Uh, there would be so much more unity, uh, in the church, if we would just.

Able to experience the glory of overlooking an offense, um, and just not cancel people because you have a different view on wearing mask or whatever. Um, the major is when it's going run, acquire a process, it's going to require intervention. It's going to require, you know, kind of the Matthew 18 Galatians six one, the process of restoration.

Uh, the next M is material. So sometimes in conflict, Uh, there needs to be restitution there, there needs to be, you know, the, I think the example I use in the book is if my neighbor's tree falls on my fence, he needs to apologize, but he also needs to pay for my fence. Right. It's like, there's, it's not just, uh, at sometimes apologizing to people.

Sometimes there's been, uh, property and, and, uh, uh, money or whatever. Uh, that's uh, uh, been harmed as well. Um, and then finally, uh, mediation. Sometimes I can't work through a conflict I have with another person. One-on-one I need someone to help me. Or, uh, as a pastor, I'm often doing this, I'm mediating the conflict.

Yeah. With a husband and wife, that's the most common or, uh, parents and kids. That's probably the second, most common or within small group members, uh, who have a riff with each other. Sometimes we need mediation and I would just encourage people to know that's okay. Like, Yeah. Um, in, uh, I've always been struck by Philippians chapter four when Paul brings up these two ladies Yoda and syndicate, and he tells an unnamed person his co-labor help these women.

Uh, and then he mentions that their names are in the book of life as if to say. They're going to be in heaven together. They'll be able to get along, but why, why don't you go help them? Uh, sometimes you need that help in order to, to get through some of the complexities and problems related to conflict.

So those are some suggestions I would offer. That's really good. That's really powerful. And it just gives us a framework to start with, um, which is just really, really helpful. And listeners can go grab the book it's called Christ centered conflict resolution, a guide for turbulent times to unpack.

Everything that we talked about today, but I'm so thankful that we got to have this conversation. Now, what we're going to do is hop on over to our Patrion community to get to know Tony a little bit better, but for this part of the conversation, I just want to thank you Tony, for being with me today. I wanted to be with you.

Thank you.