Episode 126. Why We Need the Holy Spirit with Jeannie Cunnion
Unedited Transcript
Jeannie. I am beyond thrilled to have you today. I just want to welcome you to the show. Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy to join you so fun. So I went to my PO box about six, six weeks ago, and one of the greatest parts of this job is going and pray books before they come out. And if, if listeners only knew how much of a book nerd I've in my whole life, they would know how this.
I don't think there's another job that would be so fitting for my personality. And so I actually got, I mean, it was like the RA, like manuscript advanced of your book and. I actually hadn't heard about it yet. So I love when that happens, where like they throw in something that I didn't know about. And so I was flipping through it in my car, in the parking lot of the post office.
And I was so excited that somebody wrote this book. It's so important. Yeah. Here's what I know that I want all of our listeners to know. And we just talked about this. Yeah. A lot of the books that you hold in your hand while all the, I would argue all the books that you hold in, your hands were created in such a secret place for so many years before they ever hit a shelf.
Yeah. And I mean, you even said yourself, you have worked longer, harder, et cetera, on this message than any of your previous books. And I, I could see why not, because I've read, I've read some of it, but also based on the topic and yeah. I just want to hear, like, how did God lead you to this? I mean, I can't imagine that you woke up, would they fill in like, you know what, I'm the girl that's going to write a book of all books on the Holy spirit.
So I wasn't here like the past to this day. Yeah. That is definitely not if it's opposite day, that's what happened. Otherwise that is not what happened. Um, yeah, you know, I. Start it for me about two, two and a half years ago. And it was a very simple prayer that I was praying at that point in my life, which was just God, I want all of you.
I want. All of you. I don't want to miss out on any part of who you are and what you want to do in me and, and how you want to work through me. I just want more of you. Um, and I didn't know how God would answer that prayer. It was just the one I was praying. I, you know, I was kind of, I wonder how it's almost like, I wonder how to answer this prayer.
How will he give me more of himself? And I didn't expect. To suddenly become very curious about the Holy spirit. That's really the only way I can describe it. It, I just became curious about the Holy spirit and, you know, I, I was raised as a preacher's kid. Uh, I've been following Jesus since I was eight years old.
And I actually was raised in a charismatic church. And so the Holy spirit was by no means foreign to me or scary to me. Um, and so I knew him. I thought I knew him, but what God was doing was he was reintroducing me. To the Holy spirit. He gave me this curiosity, this insatiable desire to understand who the Holy spirit was that I did not seek on out on my own.
It happened to me. And, and so I just began to open the Bible and read scripture in search of who the Holy spirit was. Where was he at work? What was I missing? I remember I called my mom and my dad and I said, Hey, you know, what are some of your, it was just before. Lent two years ago called my mom, my dad.
I said, what are some of your favorite books about the Holy spirit? And they gave me several incredible recommendations. The first one I actually read was Katherine Marshall's book, the helper little did I realize it was actually set up to read during lent. And so I just began to read and quickly discovered how little I actually knew about the Holy spirit.
And then it was pretty quickly after that, that, that same thing that happened to me with my other books began to happen to me with this one. It was kinda like, uh, Oh, I know what's happening. I'm supposed to write. What I'm learning because I journal when I write, I'm like, uh, I can't read it. I don't know about you, but I can't read a book without a highlighter or a pen.
I just do it not right. And so that was happening. And I was like, I just saw what was happening. I was like, this is becoming a book. This is the notes are, you know, an ending. The curiosity is only growing. And I had a very honest conversation with God, quite frankly, that sounded a lot like this. No, I, I am not the girl for this job.
God, no, please. No, like, let this be between you and me because I can't write about the Holy spirit. I am not, you know, I have a master's degree in social work and yes, I've been studying the Bible almost my whole life. I've written Bible studies, but it seemed like a topic that only people like Billy Graham or Francis Jan or John Piper should be writing about, you know?
And then I. I quickly realized how little I knew. And so I knew it was going to be an incredibly intense project. Um, and I just felt ill-equipped. And, and so I talked to him about that. Uh, but then what happened pretty quickly after that was, I couldn't not write this book. Yeah. Because if I know anything about God, I know that he is completely faithful to equip us in the work that he calls us to.
He's done that for me, my first two books, which I felt ill-equipped to write. Um, but I also, it was changing me. So. Deeply. It was, it was blowing my mind. I don't know how else to say it. It was blowing my mind to the point where I was like, I can't not share this. I, because I'm doing life with other Christian women.
And I started to have conversations with them going, who is the Holy spirit to you? You know, what does he play in your life? How much, how connected do you feel to him? How much do you feel like you know about him? And what became really apparent to me very quickly is that most of us felt like. We didn't know all there was to know, and that there had to be more than what we were settling for when it came to the spirit of God.
Yeah, this is so important. And I I'm so excited that you were obedient to those, those feelings of like, Oh, wow. Okay. This is, this is turning into a book and it makes me curious, this is so off script, but this is just to two girls who love Jesus, who happened to love to write and talk to people talking how what's that moment for you?
Or has it been different with your books where you're like, Noticing a thread. Is there like a flip that switches for you where you're like, okay. This is the next book, like as a girl, who's about to write her first. I'm just curious. I love hearing about people's journeys with that. I think it's that moment where you just go, I can't not share this.
Yeah. I can't keep this to myself. That's how it was with every book. It was when God began to teach me about the radical grace that's given to us in Jesus Christ. Back in 2012, that completely changed the way I parented when I had three boys. Under five and the wheels came off and I was completely wrecked as a mom and just shocked by my inadequacy and weakness.
Um, and God was going to reveal the meat, the depths of his grace, his unconditional love for me as a mom and his unconditional love for my kids. And it was that same thing where it was like, it was changing me so profoundly that I had. Write about it. And that was a big shock for me, because at the time I was an adoption social worker, I had no dream of writing.
I had no plans of writing. Um, I did adopt since I was a stay-at-home mom who did adoption social work and, and, um, so that was even a big shock for me back then. Um, but now I can't imagine doing anything but writing. I love it so much. So yeah, I think it's just that moment where you go, I have to share this.
Whether one person reads this, whether it's only my mom buys this book, Or whatever the Lord chooses to do with it. And it's also, I think it's the Holy spirit who kind of gives you that confidence, that nudge that conviction, that that's what you're being called to do. And then you just have to step out in faith and yeah.
And allow God to. Open those doors and move that needle, um, as he will, as he chooses, as you just say, all right, I will be obedient and faithfulness is kind of the reward and, and whatever you choose to do or not do in the writing of this is yours. Lord. Um, But, yeah. So I think it's just that moment where you can't, you've decided you can't not share it.
Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's so good. I think the thing that God has taught me the most in the last year of walking down this path is. How loosely we have to hold our expectations and our plans and our desire of what a project will be, and just started doing that every single day. And that looks different to me and different parts of the process.
Yeah. You know what I mean? And, um, so yeah, I, I just, I love hearing that. And as I was reading through kind of. Um, the outline of the book, one of the things that really stuck out to me about the Holy spirit that I, I personally just love about the Holy spirit is how he makes his home in us. Just that is so powerful.
So I just want to hear you unpack that a little bit for listeners. Yeah, I think that it's one of the things that we don't talk about enough, actually. I think when we have this, you know, we, you call the salvation narrative, right? Where we talk about when we put our trust in Jesus, we are, um, given eternal life, we are covered in the righteousness of Christ.
We are secure for eternity, um, and that's profound. And, and that is, you know, that is, that is the, just, that is the, that is the meat and bones, but. What we're not talking about is that in that moment that we put our trust in Jesus. What also happens is that God puts his spirit in us. It's this incredible extravagant.
Exchange so to speak right where we put our trust in Jesus. And then God puts his very spirit in us, not around us, not in front of us, not behind us, but God takes up residence in us. I mean, that is. It is supernatural. It is so profound, but we don't talk about that. So I think a lot of people, what happens is yes, I put my trust in Jesus and now I'm saved for eternity, but we don't talk about the power of Christ that is given to us in that moment.
So that as we. Now walk out our life in Christ. We have the power of Christ to fuel that, to empower us, to lead us, to guide us. And so what happens is a lot of Christians end up trying to do the Christian life in their own strength. And I think that's why we have so many Jesus dropouts, or we have so many people who say, well, I, I, I don't get it.
Like it's dull. He feels distant. Um, it doesn't really hasn't really changed anything for me. And so if that's where we are, I think one of the first questions we have to ask is, am I living in the power? Of the Holy spirit, which is deposited inside of me, the moment I put my trust in Jesus. So all of us who have put our trust in Jesus have the Holy spirit, but not all of us are living in the fullness of the Holy spirit, in the power of the Holy spirit.
We're not being led by him. We're not yielding to him and bearing fruit, uh, having him bear fruit in our lives because for a lot of us, we just don't know. Right. So some of us just don't know. And then, and then there's others. I think that are not sure what to do with the Holy spirit, because though we might know he makes his home in us.
Uh, we might assume that kind of living in the power of the Holy spirit, it's really either for the extremes it's for, and I talk about this in the book it's for the extremes it's for the super spiritual or the super strange. Right. He's kind of, and so everybody in the middle of that, if you're not like a teacher theologian leader who got access to God's spirit, because you've reached some point in your faith, or if you're not somebody who's doing strange things and abusing his name for wealth or power or fame, if you're not one of those, and then.
Who is the Holy spirit to you, right. What access do you have and what relevance does he have in your life? And there's not a lot of resources that answer those questions. And so we just kind of go. All right. I've got Jesus. I don't know that, you know, why do I need the Holy spirit? And we are missing out on the very, very distinct role in functions that he plays and performs in our lives by neglecting his presence.
Yeah. I love that phrase that you used. He takes up residence in, in us. Like that's, that's so powerful to think about. And, and it just think about like how he loves us that way. Yeah. Like what God, what God chooses to indwell his people. Yeah. Right. It's I mean, what, what a precious and priceless privilege that he does, that, that he lives inside of us.
I wonder how are. Our openness to the Holy spirit would change. If we begin to see it as a precious privilege, as a priceless privilege, right? You can't, there's no amount of money that can purchase God, all mighty living inside of you. There's no, there's no. Um, there's no power or resource that. That can acquire that.
It is just a gift that is given to those who surrendered to Christ. Yeah. You know, there's something I've heard a couple of people say throughout my life that I thought was so interesting. How, you know, when people talk about, they'll ask you a question like, well, if you could have coffee with anybody that.
If you like biblical character, like who would it be and why? And people are like, Oh, I would have coffee with Moses. I would have coffee with Daniel. I would whoever. Right. And somebody, I heard somebody say once, like I often wonder if, when we get to heaven, Moses, isn't going to ask, well, what was it like to be in dwelt by the Holy spirit?
You know, I do think like we here now on this side of it all, we think we, we read scripture and like dream about meeting somebody, but then we get to experience a piece of the Trinity of the Holy spirit that they did not, you know, and that was really helpful to me to think about like, How neglectful I am of that truth in my everyday life.
It's like, yes, theologically. I, I can check all the boxes that I believe that, but how often do I not live as if that's true? Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. You get to think about, you know, the difference that Pentecost made, right? I mean, because in the old Testament, the Holy spirit would come upon them for a specific purpose or time or moment.
But he did not take up residence inside of them. It was only because Jesus ascended and the Holy spirit was sent in the upper room on the 120 and began to then at that moment, actually take up residence inside of us. And it changed everything. Having that power inside of us, that power is a person it's the person of the Holy spirit.
So yeah. Yeah, it's really incredible to think about the difference that Pentecost made, that we don't ever have to fear losing the Holy spirit. Right. That's another really profound piece of it. Not only does he live in us, but we don't ever have to fear losing him. Right. You think about Saul and David where God removed the spirit from Saul and David saw how badly somehow poorly that went in that moment with the spirit was removed from him.
Right. And then caused David to even cry out in his. Sin in his repentance do not remove your Holy spirit from me. Um, That's not a prayer that we have to pray. We don't ever have to be worried about God removing his Holy spirit from us. Now we can grieve the Holy spirit. We can quench the Holy spirit. We can neglect the Holy spirit.
So there's all of these things that we can do to diminish, um, that relationship or his work in our lives. But we never have to fear of losing him. He is a loyal companion that remains. That's just incredible. Yeah. That's such a powerful tool. So the beginning of our friendship happened like 23 minutes ago, but what we don't know about each other yet is, so you said this earlier, but you were a pastor's kid growing up.
So I was also, I was raised in the church, but I married a pastor. So preacher's wife, preacher's wife, um, her husband's a lead pastor. And so we both sort of have this, I mean, definitely theological background, right. To know all of the things, however, One of the things that, um, I was reading through as I was preparing is just how you found yourself as an adult neglecting him and your day to day life.
We've talked about this a little bit, but apart from maybe just, I don't know, intentionality in our walk with the Lord, like, why do we, why don't we, we neglected? I think we just, I think most of us just don't know. Yeah, we don't know what we've been given in the Holy spirit. We don't know how to identify, you know, people will say, well, how do I know if it's the Holy spirit or if it's just me telling myself something, right.
Or how do I know if that's the Holy spirit and there's all these questions, we just don't know. We don't know enough about who he is and how he, um, interacts with us. And so it's about that. Those are the questions that I sought to answer. And don't miss out was who is he? What does he do and why does it matter so much?
Um, and so I think it's a, it's about. Getting to know him really like you would a friend. I mean, he is, he is the person of the Holy spirit with the personality. So we can get to know this divine person who has a mind who has a will, who has emotions, who is literally. In dwelling us, but also guiding us, you know, scripture says, keep in step with the spirit, meaning this is like a daily step-by-step thing that we can experience.
I mean, why would we settle for just kind of that natural realm life? When we can go throughout our day, fully aware of the presence of God, guiding us, communicating with us, championing us. Um, interceding for us advocating for us, strengthening us. I mean the whole Christian life is dependent on the power of the Holy spirit.
I mean, he, he literally sparks our faith. He is the one who opens the eyes of our hearts to the love of Jesus. So he initiates it and then he sustains it. He sanctifies us, he strengthens us, he comforts us. There are all of these very distinct things that he's doing in us and through us that. We might not be aware of.
And so, as we learn and then lean into that work, you really do have this opportunity to feel the presence of God. In you and with you, as you go throughout your day, it's not reserved for people who have been following Jesus for 20 years. It's for the person who put their faith in Jesus three hot seconds ago.
Right? This is something that we can all experience. God wants us to experience. He doesn't want us to settle for just living the natural realm life. We have been invited into the super natural life. The, the life of being led. By the spirit of God. And it's, it's not all that complicated. I think that the enemy wants us to feel like it's complicated and heavy.
And it's for those who have some kind of deep, rich, theological background, but it's not. And my hope is that as people read, don't miss out. I, as you know, I wrote 30 short chapters, so they're just these bite-size digestible chapters and each one focuses on a characteristic or a benefit. Of having the Holy spirit.
Um, and so I hope that as we kind of get to know who he is and what he does. It becomes it uncomplicates it. And it feels very inviting. Um, and, and we begin to see him as somebody who is very relatable. Right. I think that's another thing we just don't know how to relate to him. He, but the truth is he's so likable, right?
I mean, that's what I want people to know. If you, if you kept them at arms length, if you've, if you've been hurt by the church, because things have been done in his name that are not who he is and they're not of him. I'm sorry. I mean, there, people have been truly hurt, um, in the name of the Holy spirit and how, um, how that must break the father's heart that people have used his spirit and his name, uh, for their own wealth or for their own fame.
But the truth is he's incredibly likable he's. So I don't want to use the word normal because he's anything, you know, he's so. He's so mysterious and yet he is so normal. He's so relatable in the sense that he is the person of the Holy spirit, who is an incredible friend and the ultimate helper, the ultimate helper that we need.
Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Well, one of the things, and this is a good lead into this. That you talk about in the book as loneliness, which if any season of our lives has maybe brought this, it's probably been the last year and a half of our lives. Right. And so, you know, what hope can those facing loneliness today who are listening, find in the Holy spirit.
Yeah. I remember reading, uh, this was before the pandemic started rating that loneliness was now being called the number one epidemic in America that was before COVID right. So just imagine how that has intensified. Um, in our lives and, and loneliness, as we know doesn't mean that you're physically alone.
You can be surrounded by five children and still feel lonely, right? It's not necessarily a physical thing, but it's that feeling of just being alone in how you feel and alone in what you're going through. And so one of the beautiful things about the Holy spirit is that, is that he is this indwelling companion.
I love that word companion for him, that, that even in our loneliest moments, we are never truly alone because we have this companion, this loyal companion, and I think. This is why it's important for us to recognize that the Holy spirit is a person that he's not just an, it, he's not just a force. He's not just fire or dove or water, the things by which he is symbolized in scripture.
Um, but that he is a divine person that he is God, the Holy spirit, but they are the three and one. So he is a divine person who. Who wants to be in relationship who wants to be in friendship with you? Who wants you to feel the very realness of his presence? And so I know for me, that's been really profound and in lonely seasons of my life, when I've walked through really hard or dark things, um, just having that, that companionship, that very real sense that you are here with me, that I don't walk through any fire.
It's like that song that's out right now. Um, Uh, what's the name of it? You walk me through fire. I don't know. I sing it all the time, but we're, um, it's kind of like, I can walk through this cause I know you walk through with me. Yeah. Um, and we can, we can feel and experience his presence that way. Yeah.
That's so powerful. I'm curious. Was there something that surprised you about the Holy spirit as you worked on this project or something that just like delighted you, that maybe you discovered. I think there, there was a lot, honestly, like I kept like having like these, you know, like that emoji, like my mind just got blown again.
Um, that happened for me a lot. Um, I think one of the most beautiful things that became much clearer to me about the Holy spirit is that. The Holy Spirit's goal, his ultimate goal is to glorify Jesus. You know, Jesus said he will glorify me. And so one of the things that grieved me about the way I had neglected the spirit is that as somebody who loves Jesus, because I know how he's rescued me and the extent to which he went.
To reconcile me to God. I want my life to be a love song for Jesus. I want my life, even in my weakness, even in my shortcoming, even in my sin where I have to go to my husband or my kids and say, I'm really sorry. You know, I, I need Jesus. I fall on the grace and the mercy of Jesus everyday. So I don't even mean my life being a love song for him in, in, you know, in perfect obedience.
Right. It's it's even through the ways that we fall short, that we can, uh, That we can boast about the grace of God, like Paul talked about. And so if I want my life to be a love song for Jesus, um, that's what the Holy spirit. Does in me and through me. Right? So because the Holy spirit shines the spotlight on Jesus.
He makes much of Jesus. So the more full of the spirit we are, the more, um, he fills us, the larger he gets in our lives. The more our lives do become love songs for Jesus. The more our lives do point to our King Jesus, our rescuer. And so I just. It's like, I want more of the Holy spirit because I want my life to point to Jesus in a way that I can't do in my own strength that I can't do in my own attempt at sanctifying myself.
So it's for me, it's become this come Holy spirit, fill me, um, and, and shine the spotlight on Jesus through me. So, um, I think a lot of Christians, that's how we feel, right. We want our lives to be. Um, shining the spotlight on Jesus, but we're so aware of our weaknesses and our shortcomings and the sins in which we get stuck.
And so the more full of the Holy spirit we are, he does that in us and through us. So I just became really grateful for that. Kind of that aspect of the Holy Spirit's work in my life, so to speak. Um, I love, yeah, I love that. That's good. So by the time listeners, listen to this conversation, the book will be out into the world.
We happen to be talking about it the day before it releases, which is an extra special treat for both of us. But I want to give you the opportunity to share with listeners, where can they find you? Where can they grab the book? All of those things. Yeah. So, um, everything is basically Jeannie Kenyon. That's my website.
That's my Instagram. Um, and there are links, um, on my website, on my Instagram where you can buy the book, but the basically everywhere books are sold, Amazon target Barnes and noble, all the places. Um, and we also have a, um, we just finished a. Book club experience, which I'm really excited about. It's a free download on my website.
So my hope is that people will gather and have conversations really dig into this in groups, whether that's over zoom or in friends' living rooms or. Yeah, honestly, if you just want to do it on your own, right. Where you read it, each chapter ends with a reflect and respond. So it's kind of a, my hope is that you'll kind of sit with that characteristic or that benefit for a moment.
Um, but the book club experience just gives you everything. You need to go a little bit deeper. So, um, that's a free resource on my website as well. If you want to read the book with friends and not have to worry about how to lead it and what questions to ask, it's all there for you. That's awesome. I love that.
That'll be so powerful just to be able to walk through that with people. I think the more we community, right? Yeah. The more we can gather and process kind of what the Lord's doing, especially on such an important topic like this. That's just really cool. So I love that you're offering that. Okay. So what we're going to do now is hop on over to our Patrion community, which is so much fun.
We'll get, we'll get to know Jeannie a little bit better over there. So for our subscribers, make sure you go listen to our bonus episode with her, but. For now, I just want to say a huge, thank you again. Uh, yeah. Thank you for welcoming me.
